SPEAKER_02 0:00

Marek, daar gaan we weer. Ja, vandaag weer.

SPEAKER_00 0:04

Weer een tussendoortje te valt.

SPEAKER_02 0:06

Ja, tussendoor, maar Nederland is een populair wijnland aan het worden natuurlijk.

SPEAKER_00 0:10

Dat is altijd al geweest. Al eeuwen. Heel lang geleden waren we altijd al wijn transporteren van Bordeaux naar Nederland toe. Een kaas terug voor de ballast van de schepen. Kijk.

SPEAKER_02 0:23

En dan kon hij ook altijd alles kopen, natuurlijk, of wie dat wil.

SPEAKER_00 0:27

Ja, en we hebben veel wijn hier in Nederland.

SPEAKER_02 0:29

Gelukkig maar.

SPEAKER_00 0:30

Dat komt omdat wij heel internationaal georiënteerd zijn, natuurlijk. En daarom, kijk, als je in Frankrijk komt, heb je eigenlijk bijna alleen maar wijn uit Frankrijk. En sterker nog, als je in de streek komt, als je in het Bonje komt, dan heb je alleen maar wijn in het Bourgon.

SPEAKER_02 0:43

Ja, er staan andere wijnenstaan buiten de buitenlandse kaart.

SPEAKER_00 0:46

Ja, precies. Maar in Nederland is heel pred georiënteerd we zitten hier vandaag met. Ja, we hebben vandaag een gast.

SPEAKER_02 0:52

Ja, dus we gaan dadelijk verder in het Engels. Yes, we go in English. Yes, international.

SPEAKER_00 0:57

Yes. We have Adrien Encontre. Hello, nice to meet you. Hello. Bonjour Adrien. Bonjour à tous. We talk in English because better for our listeners. So, who is Adrien?

SPEAKER_03 1:13

Tell us. Ah, good question. I'm the Swiss knife of uh Domen Nero, uh general manager, winemaker. I'm lucky to be working there for five years now. Uh, Domeniero is a small family estate that has been born right after the Second World War, like most of the domains in this region. Uh, there have been vines there since the Romans, but there's been a lot of cycles, and the latest one uh was born actually after the war. Uh so a third generation family-owned domain, uh, with the actual owner uh Remiero, who took over his father and then his grandfather.

SPEAKER_00 1:53

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 1:55

And then yes. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 1:56

Now we can we start with because you are from the Rhone Valley. Exactly. And the Rhone Valley is divided in two, actually. I like those names. Rhone Septentrional, that's where you are, and you have Rhone Meridin Meridional.

SPEAKER_03 2:14

Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 2:15

Merid meridional. What's the what's the difference?

SPEAKER_03 2:19

So the first difference when we think about these uh places is actually geographic geographical and uh climate. Uh we are at the top top north uh of the Rhone Valley, meaning uh on top of us there is the city of Lyon. Yeah, okay, yeah, uh and then it's Beaujolais and Burgundy, Burgundy. Okay, so we're lucky we're in a nice area. If you want to come by Dutch people, feel free to make a lot of stops.

SPEAKER_00 2:46

There's only good I've been at Jotoman about I've been at Jodemen five years ago or something.

SPEAKER_03 2:53

Yeah, so beautiful.

SPEAKER_00 2:54

So you are in the north?

SPEAKER_03 2:56

We are exactly at the very north of the of the Rhone Valley, and then uh so this area is uh characterized by uh continental uh weather, meaning very hot uh summers, it's quite dry, and cold winters. We have a very small, small uh Mediterranean influence, but it's quite small. That goes until the region of uh Thames, Valence, and then going back to uh more south uh around Chateauneuf du Pape, it's what we call the the south of the Rhone Valley. It's a meridional exactly, and then you have a much more Mediterranean uh climate, yeah, and the soils will be also different, uh more flat zones, a bit less and therefore you have different uh soils.

SPEAKER_00 3:44

Exactly.

SPEAKER_03 3:45

In the north you have we have more granite, it's actually a very, very, very old uh volcano, the Massif Central, which is more in the center of France, which is diving, let's say, into the Rhone. Okay, yeah, like these mountains are a billion years ago, but it's still the end of that granite structure that is landing into the Rhone. Thus, this is where we sit at the very end of that, on hillsides facing the road.

SPEAKER_00 4:14

Yeah, because uh the that's the granite, and the wineyards are also very steep because the Ron the Rhone River is quite narrow over there, it's directly south of Lyon, of the city of Lyon.

SPEAKER_03 4:26

Exactly. It's it's it's like 30 minutes by car south of Lyon, 20 kilometers or something. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 4:33

And uh so you have very steep uh vineyards with granite, etc. And then you have all this famous uh have you uh the famous applause.

SPEAKER_03 4:44

Exactly. So uh we are in the area where we find what we call the cruise of uh La Valley du Rhone. Uh a crew means everything and nothing at the same time, it's just a smart word to define somehow a qualitative wine. Cru classique. Some some uh parts of France have uh classifications, uh like in Bordeaux, they have their own in different ways. In Burgundy, a village premier crew grand cru. We don't uh do any yearchy within any uh different uh parcels within each appellation, but it's just that we have some north of the appellation that are considered as crude. That would be Cotroti, Condrieux, Saint Joseph, Crozermitage, Ermitage, Cornas, Saint-Pere. Yeah, okay, yeah. Uh this this is for like the north side. Okay, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 5:39

And then uh because we we go into focus on the on the Taus, we have more Grenache.

SPEAKER_03 5:44

Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 5:48

Uh Vacera, etcetera, etcetera. And that's more Grenache country.

SPEAKER_03 5:53

It's also more uh diversified uh grape type country. Uh we are more monotype in the north. Uh you know, Chateauneuf people were actually uh maybe the smartest. They were the first to draw out the appellation in 1940. First AOC is Chateauneuf. Yeah. And they have 13 allowed grape types in their guidelines.

SPEAKER_00 6:16

But I know I know from experience they say they use 13, but most of them use only two, three of them. Exactly. Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_03 6:24

But there is much more diversity of uh grape types and terroirs in their area whether than us, okay?

SPEAKER_00 6:31

And they are always blends, not always, but a lot of times, most of the times.

SPEAKER_03 6:36

Uh in our side, it's mostly monotype grapes, so it's gonna be Sierra for the Reds and uh Vionnier in Condrieux. It's a little technicality. Uh Condrieux is like the hometown of Vionier in France. I think there are amazing Vionniers in other places of the world, uh such as uh Australia, South Africa, for example, great terroir for Vionnier there as well. Uh, in France, it's it's really Condrieu, and then you find it again uh in the south, but in blends. Okay, yeah, it's not the same as the langa dogmoral. Exactly. Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_00 7:12

Um for me, I when I taste Vionnier, we will taste a few of them um during the podcast. Uh, that for me is a big difference in northern Gondry, in northern yes, than in Langed Dog. The difference in taste is enormous.

SPEAKER_03 7:35

Yes, especially for these kinds of grapes who are very uh uh aromatic, tasteful, a bit like uh Sauvignon, Givostramineur, uh Vermontino. You can see a lot of style difference just within the terroir. Yeah, not even speaking about the winemaking, but just the terroir. So yeah, having the good terroir helps to bring to keep some uh energy into the wine, some minerality, some salinity, some bitterness. Uh we have that in the granite hills of Condrieux.

SPEAKER_00 8:07

So this yeah that's uh the acidity and the mineral minerality at so much. Exactly. Okay, and so we focus now on we focused on the northern, and now we're gonna focus on your domain.

SPEAKER_03 8:19

Dominiero is where in we are in this very center of the Condrieux town. So the Condrieu appellation is going in different towns. It's not only in the small Condrieu village. It will go on to it's it's small, it's 200-ish hectares. It will go on seven different little towns. Uh we are in the center of Condrieu, like in front of the mayor's office. It can't be more centered. Or the place we host clients all along the road is the old uh tourist office of Condrieux. So you see, we are there on the national road.

SPEAKER_00 8:55

And what you said is quite a young because uh it was established after the first the second world war. Yes, but like I I thought it was in 1973 or something.

SPEAKER_03 9:05

Yes, because that's the like the official dates, but before that, uh De Niro was still making wines, but it was like garage wines. Yeah, okay. For a generation almost, it was like a few barrels into the garage, and it was like that. This is where it started with most of these generations, like uh the Vernay generation as well. They were the neighbor of uh Robert Niero. All these these guys that are known today, they they started like that.

SPEAKER_02 9:31

So it started very small.

SPEAKER_03 9:33

Yes, of course, by picking up uh 3,000 meters there from the Great Ant, or etc. Uh, from uh the oldest vines that were actually planted into in the 40s. The oldest vines we have today in the Vernon and Cherry side of Condrieu are from these these periods.

SPEAKER_00 9:51

So you bought and you collected the vineyards to make the domain what it it is now.

SPEAKER_03 9:56

Yes, it was uh it was uh more like uh at the beginning uh family restructuring, uh, because you have uh you always know somebody in the family who has a piece here, a piece there, but they don't work on it, so put it in bad together around two, three hectares, and then uh Robert Niro planted uh extra hectares, especially in the 80s. This is where he planted uh two actors in Cotroti. So these vines are uh 40-ish years old now. And then uh Remy, his son took over, uh, planted uh, for example, a parcel in Saint Joseph that was uh almost 20 years ago now. So every generation brings its uh addition to the table. New plantings.

SPEAKER_00 10:42

New plantings exactly.

SPEAKER_03 10:43

And talking about plantings, about uh your your uh your planting materials, yes, is it uh selection Marsal or do you buy so we try to do both, but there is uh most of the planting we do is is I mean planting a new parcel is quite rare because uh today uh the land is either not accessible anymore, there's no room, or you can't cut trees anymore to plant uh vines, it's overprotected. Yeah, yeah. I think it in a good way, it's just that you're not allowed. Exactly, exactly. Well, it's a bit uh like a French uh way. You are allowed, but then you're allowed to plant, but you're not allowed to cut trees to plant, so you can't plant it. So I mean it's a bit it's a big debate uh in order to to help the the trees to stay alive, so it's actually a good thing, but it gets harder to work on new parcels, okay, especially on appellations that are very small and restrictive, like but when vines die, yes. So you replant most of the replanting we do is that uh rebrochage that we do every year uh with different strategies, and we struggle a lot on that because of the drought. So the the mortality on these replants is is quite high.

SPEAKER_00 12:01

So you replant, and then the vines are young and they die of of lack of water.

SPEAKER_03 12:06

Exactly, stress from from the lack of water that happens a lot. So we try different techniques every year uh to protect these young vines, but there's not much you can do because there's no irrigation system, even though you are allowed irrigation is allowed, right? To uh to water these young plants, but uh you have to imagine your and it's allowed to water the plants, the young plants, and wash between zero to three years, yeah. Okay, but imagine you're on uh 50% steep hills and it's one new plant every uh I don't know uh 15 meters. How do you know possible? No, and you're not gonna go with your little yeah, by hand sometimes. You when you're desperate, you you have to do put the tracks into the parcel and you you can't just stand there and do nothing. Yeah, uh so uh last year we did we tried to to put some little um like uh carpets that are natural little carpets uh to help the the water stay there, but honestly, when you work the soils, it's just doesn't work. So when you try something, it might work one year, and then the other year it's a different weather, and then you're like, okay, it doesn't work anymore. So it's it's quite a challenge to it's an ongoing process, exactly.

SPEAKER_00 13:18

Okay, but uh I'm coming back on the water thing. Uh but I uh the we are with uh still with the root stocks, the the the planting. You buy new plantings?

SPEAKER_03 13:30

So we do both uh for two reasons. Uh because in the end, I mean every winemaker has its own philosophy. This it's one of the first choices he has to make about uh the the woodstock, but uh I think the the the the point of choosing the right uh rootstock and clone is to have the most healthy parcel on the long run and to produce the best wines. Now, when you say that everybody's gonna have a different opinion. So we're going to mix a little masal from some of the uh vines that we think are are okay or doing fine. So every year we collect some of these that we sent to the how do you say uh vine nursery, okay? And like uh I don't know, 75% we we buy, so we choose the most resistant, first of all, uh woodstock, so the American roots part. Yeah that will honestly now these days it's it's there's almost one and two, and everybody chooses that because they're the most water resistant. So this is the number one thing you want to go is some roots that can handle the drought. Yes, yeah, and then uh the clones. Uh we work with two or three different on Sierra and Vionnier, uh that are mainly used in the region. So we try to mix so that also when there is a stupid sickness or whatever, not every plant is is is sick the same way.

SPEAKER_00 15:01

Yeah, okay.

SPEAKER_03 15:01

You try to dilute the risk as much as possible.

SPEAKER_00 15:05

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 15:06

Just like you ask your kid to to eat uh with some variety, you know, so that he stays in good health. You you try to plant thinking about it, like your kids.

SPEAKER_00 15:15

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, that's not okay. Talking about water, yeah, uh is the water stress has that evolved during climate change? Do you do you have less water the last 20 years?

SPEAKER_03 15:28

I think if we talk about the climate change, uh uh for sure there has been an effect. Uh the effect is not uh steady, uh it's not stable, it's very chaotic and it's unreadable. It has uh generally uh pushed forward the date of harvest. Okay, so it's no longer I'm I'm going to do a bit of a cliche, but uh in the 70s it used to be mid-October. Now it's more and more end of August.

SPEAKER_01 15:59

Yeah. Wow.

SPEAKER_03 16:00

So even mid-September now is uh there's not a lot of harvest in in these areas. If we look at this year, we're again it's too soon to tell exactly, but it will be most probable to between the 25th and the 30th of August. Jeez. So that's the first year. And it used to be October. It used to be October. It used to be October at 12.5 degrees Sierra for Cotroti. Oh wow. Now it's end of August. Uh and then the degrees actually they can fall very quickly depending on the rain. And then we also have to deal with that. So it's not because it's it's the grapes go higher that they're automatically ready. But uh, so uh more chaotic situations, it can be uh very rainy, it can it can be actually uh more uh frost uh risk. So that's uh and but not only in in the Rhone, but uh in all the regions everywhere because it's it's hotter in January and in February. You now we prune in t-shirt, yeah. Okay, uh not all the time, but uh you get every year a week where you you're pruning the vines and you're wearing a t-shirt. That's really normal. And then obviously it's normal that there is a like a cold period around the end of March, beginning of April. But at that time, if all the vines have bloomed, it becomes a problem. So the risk will go, I think, higher and higher. Yeah. In our region, it doesn't it doesn't freeze uh a lot because we are mostly on hills.

SPEAKER_00 17:35

Uh but if I think about regions like Chablis, uh I think the the risk is the risk of frost is not very high in your region. It happens, but I'm touching wood.

SPEAKER_03 17:48

The only year it really happened was uh in 21.

SPEAKER_00 17:52

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 17:53

Being in the first week of April, we've had like 60% of uh everything frozen in two hours. But that happened once in the history of the appellation. Yeah, just that like this year, for example, um when it got cold a few weeks ago, it it went like zero minus one. It was just okay. It had bloomed already. If it had been minus five, then again. I mean, you're it's it's it's uh it's still close, huh? Yeah, yeah. So you know it's gonna happen every what? You don't know what, but you know it's gonna happen. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 18:30

Talking about the water stress, yes, you do something in the wine yard to avoid or avoid to keep your water in the wine, like uh the weeds, and so you let them grow, or so we try when you we do the new plantings, first of all.

SPEAKER_03 18:45

Uh to first is is a good training of the team because you're not alone in the vineyard to do the work, you have five, six, seven people. They need to have the roots correctly implemented into the ground, and you need to to dig a little hole around it to create like a natural uh little cabinet for the whenever it rains, that the rains will stick into the exactly somehow. That that helps.

SPEAKER_00 19:12

A little dike. We have lots of dikes here, yeah. So something like that.

SPEAKER_03 19:16

It's just uh that these two first steps. If you plant them deep enough and then you do that little hole around it, that that's the first easy thing you can do. Yeah, uh choosing the right uh woodstock, obviously.

SPEAKER_00 19:28

And you need it because it's a young planting, so you can, when it's needed, you can water them.

SPEAKER_03 19:33

Yeah, exactly. So the water stays. Yeah, but to go and water the plants is uh it's it's almost impossible because if you think about the amount of water that your plant needs and to what you can do with your little truck into the vineyard, it's uh it's like uh it's like you do uh my son has a very good idea. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 19:57

He's opening the fridge for the white wine.

SPEAKER_03 19:59

Ah good, I was thirsty.

SPEAKER_00 20:03

Okay. If you do everything by uh Koravan, yeah, it's there. Okay.

SPEAKER_02 20:11

Um yeah, it's not doable to do everything manually by hand or to yeah.

SPEAKER_03 20:15

We have to do everything by hand, but some operations uh you can't. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 20:20

So it's how steep are your wine yards?

SPEAKER_03 20:23

It depends on the parcel, but uh like the steepest, or like uh imagine uh a black slope when you ski. Okay, this is what a Cotroti and most of the Condrieu parcels are like.

SPEAKER_00 20:34

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 20:34

So and then depending on the configurations, you can have little terrace that we call Chaille, or you can find uh one, two or three rows, or you go down the slope directly. Yeah, and so imagine people think a lot about the manual uh handwork when we do the harvest because it's the most visible side of the job, but it's only 10 days, uh 12 days, and the rest of the day. And then it's easy, you know, you pick up the fruit, you're happy to actually do that work. Most of the hard work is between now and end of July when you have to plough because we try not to use herbicides uh as less as possible. So you have to plough to cut the grass like every 10 days or so, and then to actually take care of the vines and also the treatments, and that's that's that's handy.

SPEAKER_00 21:26

So yeah. Talking about employees, so you you use quite a lot of employees from now till July. In the summer it's a little bit less, and then you have to harvest, which is in 12 days. Exactly. You have to do the harvest also very quick now because in the old days I know when the grapes were ready, they were ready for about a week. But because of the heat and everything, when the mines now get ready, they are in two days, they are too far already. That's what I hear from other producers.

SPEAKER_03 21:55

Yes. Is that correct? Exactly. We have to be uh we have to have a flexibility. Staff. So it's a bit of a mix between the guys that we have for the season. We try as much to have local guys. They're very different profiles. It can be a student who's suddenly thinking about doing something else for a year. It can be a guy living in the truck at the end of the parcel. It can be a pre-retreated guy. We have a very mixed team. With plus family and friends, and then you know we're 20 people.

SPEAKER_00 22:40

You have not known people from Romania or Bulgaria. And how many people do you have for uh for the advantage, for instance?

SPEAKER_03 23:00

For the season, we are like around 10 people. Okay. Can go up to 12 between May and July.

SPEAKER_00 23:06

And when it's easier, you are with the four of you four or five people.

SPEAKER_03 23:10

And then uh yeah, twenty for the harvest, and the rest of the year it's yeah, it's between four and five. Yeah. Okay. Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 23:18

Okay. What do we have in the glass? Yeah. Tell us about it.

SPEAKER_03 23:22

Vionier. I talked about Vionier, so here we go.

SPEAKER_00 23:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 23:25

Um we are going to taste three different sides of the Vionnier. The first and the most accessible is in Condrieux, but it's not a Condrieux. So you're gonna ask me how can that be? Uh because most of the people, when you tell them that, they they seem to be confused with the appellation system, etc. All of the appellation is based on a geographical location, uh, not on the name of the city, but where the soil is is precisely. In Condrieu, we have some land in the flat zone near the Rhone. It's actually similar to the fields you have here in the Netherlands. So it's quite rich soils, close to the water. Uh used to be um vegetable farming uh lands. Okay, now a lot of winemakers have vines into this area on which we produce IGP colline rhodanienne on Vionnier, Marsan, and Syrah. So we do a single uh Vionier uh wine, which is welcome to the worlds of the Vionnier in Condrieux in an accessible way. Okay, very fresh, accessible. Uh we on purpose uh harvest, and then we do only a steel tank aging because we want to preserve that uh freshness, that uh easy uh capacity of drinkability of this wine. It's uh you can smell, it's very aromatic. You know you're in Vionier, you know you're in Condrieu, but it's it's like it's more easy to drink than a Condrieu. It's fresher, it's lighter, it's a bit more simple. Okay. Because in this area, the vines are on rich soils. You know how they do on rich soils, they're a bit lazy, they go one meter, they have all the comfort they need. Yeah, so they do bigger grapes but a bit more uh less intensity than on the hillside of the Condri.

SPEAKER_00 25:18

Yeah, we will taste it afterwards because we're going to taste your condue also. So this is more approachable for the bigger public people with a lower city, but uh the the fermentation is it done by artificial yeast, or do you need wild yeast or both or whatever?

SPEAKER_03 25:34

So when we think about that, first of all, for all the whites, so we we harvest the grapes, we will press them right away.

SPEAKER_00 25:42

Okay, whole bunch, firm uh whole bunch pressing.

SPEAKER_03 25:45

Exactly. Well, when I say right away, it will actually depend the moment uh of the time of harvest. We usually harvest only in the mornings because then it gets too hot.

SPEAKER_00 25:56

But then if it's a batch that we start at seven o'clock or something.

SPEAKER_03 26:01

Exactly, exactly. And you sometimes even sooner, and we stop at noon or maybe at one if we need to finish up ourselves, but then it gets too hot and we feel it's it's not the proper moment to harvest. Uh and then we go back and forth to the cellar to start the press. Okay. If we we come up with a big batch at the end of the uh morning and then it's too hot, we leave this batch into the the cold of the cellar, okay, and we will only press it into the morning. So we want to press fresh grape, that's the first thing. Yeah, yeah. Okay. Uh so we have the grape juice, and then we will put it into a uh steel tank for debourbage. Okay, so intentionally we lower the temperature there below below 15 degrees. We we want we want the bacteria to stay silent. We say, okay, keep cold, keep do nothing. No, no, no, no. Just lay low. We want the heavier leaves from the press to go down, and then we will take only the 95% clear juice that will be on top.

SPEAKER_00 27:07

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 27:07

Then this grape juice, which has not started to ferment yet, we will clear it uh downstairs to our um cellar, uh, and we will dispatch it in different containers depending on what we want to do with the future wine. In this uh wine, for example, it will only be one steel tank because we want to preserve as much as possible the acidity, the minerality, and that simple viognier kind of effect. Okay, we want you to want to put makeup on that wine. And once we put it into the steel tank, we adapt the temperature to make sure it will start. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 27:47

And at the same time you have with a natural juice.

SPEAKER_03 27:50

Yes, at the same time you have Condriuse, imagine the sellers that are a little bit in steel, a little bit in different uh oak barrels. If one of these lots is not starting, and one is, we're going to do the first easy stuff. You take one bucket, you take one liter, you throw it in the next tank, just to as a starter, as a starter, and 90% of the time it works. Yeah, yeah. And if it really doesn't work, because I don't know, there's always some special weather conditions or whatever, you can always add like extra non-flavor yeast, but that we try to avoid that. Yeah, okay. But it but that tool exists.

SPEAKER_00 28:28

But you need it, you need it. Exactly. Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_03 28:31

You don't? Uh good. That we try not to be able to use it, it's not automatically uh no, not added. Yeah, that's that's how we proceed.

SPEAKER_00 28:40

Yeah, yeah. But you know, talking about artificial yeast, uh a German grower, uh Helmut Dernhoff, very famous uh uh Riesling grower, he told me that even in the very old days already, about 200 years ago something, they already had yeasts which we are selected because what he did, they're different vineyards. They put a little bit, about 30-40 kilos of grapes, and he put it in a bucket, and he did it with four or five vineyards, and he left it for one night in the bucket, and the bucket what taste is the best, they took these yeast to start up the fermentation with all the QAs. So that's actually already a little kind of artificial yeast.

SPEAKER_03 29:26

It I think today the the like all debates are a bit uh extremes, yeah, and uh people tend to have big ideas when it comes to wine. Uh, we're not saving lives, and it's it's wine guys, but but it's like uh yeast are really bad or really uh necessary. No, it's just uh there can be you know there can be some moderation on that on that matter, like on many, but uh again, it it's really hard to prove the taste change with this kind of yeast or natural yeast, etc.

SPEAKER_02 29:59

Yeah, but people think that with lab coats and and and within a whole laboratorium that I made the yeast, but that's not of the yeah topic because also the yeast that um yeah Marce was talking about, it's still like a natural yeast, but in a smaller environment, and then you choose it from that.

SPEAKER_03 30:16

People hear what they want to hear, yeah. And then they taste, uh, and then it's very mental at the end. Yeah. Wine. It's you think about the recipe, and then you you convince yourself that the wine is gonna taste like that because the method has been like that. Honestly, the most most important is the tiroir, and then the quality, the healthness of the grape when it comes into the into the tank when it's been harvested. That's 95% of the state.

SPEAKER_00 30:41

That is the most important thing.

SPEAKER_03 30:42

Yes, that's the main topic here.

SPEAKER_00 30:44

The rest are like it can have an influence, of course, yeah, but it's uh it's a lot of this more discussions than sometimes and sometimes you need tools because the same grower Durnoff told me they start up with a natural yeast, a fermentation, and then they have uh during the fermentation, they notice that not everything is going in the good direction, and then they push it with with artificial yeast in the good direction.

SPEAKER_03 31:14

So what's no no no, it's there's not right and wrong about that, but uh there are I think it's of course it's harder to do it the whole uh I'm gonna use the word natural, nothing added, etc. Because it it needs it requires more experience, it requires uh um more how do you say the cleanness, it requires more strictness, etc. People who think that uh a good natural wine is just let it be. These are the wines that have smelled like cow, you know, uh in the end. Uh so there are very few good ones because you actually need to work like a surgeon to to to to go into that direction. It's nothing free. Uh but you know it's it's common sense. Uh you try to put the wines in uh in uh in a situation where it can easily start by itself, and you can do that, first of all, with the right grape uh harvest moment. Yeah, temperature is super important because if it's too hot, especially for the reds, you have that potential for going into volatile earlier than uh fermentation. So uh yeah, you you can you can do everything you can to to start in the best conditions, yeah. And then, if needed, you have some tools which in the end they don't turn your grape into uh banana juice. You need some moderation about that, yeah, just to keep the thing under control.

SPEAKER_00 32:43

Also, that is possible, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 32:44

Everything is possible you could to standardize in a way, but uh I don't I don't think if you think about origin, we want first of all our wines to be the reflect of our parcel, and then our method, and then there's the vintage effect that should not be erased by some you know uh standardization. That's not what we're looking for.

SPEAKER_00 33:07

So you're looking for very healthy grapes in the wine yard?

SPEAKER_03 33:10

That's the that's really really really the most important? No, no, you were thinking I was thinking about it because they're used to be in the old days, I know some sugary condries. Uh, I think it's a bit of a shame for the uh uh let's say the the history, and then because of the quality also of these wines, so of course you have to sell the wines in the end, and uh, there's not a lot of markets anymore for sugary wines. Uh as you can see in Bordeaux as well, they have these problems, but uh yeah, it's a bit of a shame that uh I've tasted a few good ones uh that are very old, they they handle very well. So it's still part of the history. You we're allowed to make sugary wines, but you yeah, you're allowed, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 34:00

I know. I uh like straw uh uh van de paie. Yeah, exactly. For instance, but that's I think that is that we I never see van de paie.

SPEAKER_03 34:09

No, no, no. It's uh yeah, ermitage as well, can do, but uh very few do it. Yeah, still do it? No, no, very few, very few still do it. I never see it.

SPEAKER_02 34:20

But uh to finish this wine, yeah, it's a very nice way to learn.

SPEAKER_00 34:23

But this is the entry level, it's very nice, it's very fruity, yeah, and it's uh not that complex or whatever. I think this goes very good with with white meat or or uh fish, what fish with with with with creamy uh with uh butter uh things, all that kind of things.

SPEAKER_03 34:41

I but also to drink like this, it's also very yeah, very easy and and why not it's the aperative uh winery drink in the to into the vines uh when we do the break during the harvest, you know. It's a no-brainer, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 34:53

No, it's a no and it's uh it's always also going to the malolectic. I think Vionnier is picking up malolectic very easily because of the lower acidity.

SPEAKER_03 35:03

Yes. So we don't, yeah. Even for these wines, we usually don't block the the mallows because we feel, but that's something uh every winemaker will have its different approach. Of course. Uh we don't want to play with that to to try to gain more acidity. We feel that it's part of the natural process of the wine, and that that process will bring something to the chondrial side of the wines. Yeah, and so that that lees uh effect that you will find, that roundness, etc. For us, it's part of the character of the wines of the region that we feel we don't want to to touch. Yeah, but you know, just the fact that we simply keep this wine in a steel tank, it's it gives the freshness we need. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 35:52

And only eight months in steel and leave it on the leash, I suppose.

SPEAKER_03 35:56

Exactly. And then you know, it would make for us no sense to block the mallow and then to do uh oak uh aging and batonage. Then you know it's like uh it's too much, it's too much. It's counterproductive.

SPEAKER_00 36:07

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. But maybe we come come to the condrier where you're we come we come to that.

SPEAKER_03 36:13

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_00 36:13

Okay, so this is quite affordable, it's never cheap, of course. It's uh 22 euros in the shops of the Gennereux. Yeah, actually, all wines today are from the Gennereux because the Genre is your distributor in the Netherlands.

SPEAKER_03 36:27

Exactly. We have uh this uh very nice company who imports of wine, and I think it's uh the only place in the world where they have this smart system where they have uh the 20-ish partners all around.

SPEAKER_00 36:40

40 or 40 shops and uh two shops in Belgium also.

SPEAKER_03 36:44

Okay, so they are uh all together within this importing company, but they are all also independent uh wine sellers across the country, and I find that very interesting because everyone has their model, but they also purchase some wines together, so that's uh very interesting model, and then uh so yeah, happy to spread the Vionier love around the Netherlands through Legendre. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 37:10

Talking about the the domain, we didn't exactly name it uh how big is it now? Because uh Remy uh now Remy uh uh it's nine hectares, it's nine hectares uh divided four in Condrieux.

SPEAKER_03 37:26

So see, Condrieu is really the center of our domain. Four hectares in Condrieu, two in Côte Rotti, a bit less than one in Saint Joseph, yeah, uh a little bit also in uh Croz Hermitage, yeah, and then we have a few parcels in the plain of Condrieux on which we do these in the plain, yeah? Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 37:45

Yeah, because this applation is called what is called it?

SPEAKER_03 37:49

It's uh IGP called in Rodanien.

SPEAKER_00 37:52

Yeah, IGP yeah well, yeah, nice, very nice, drinkable, very nice.

SPEAKER_03 37:56

It's it's what the Burgundy would call village.

SPEAKER_00 38:00

And we're not allowed to for double the price, yeah, exactly. Well, this is for 22 euros a very nice. Exactly.

SPEAKER_03 38:10

It's a I think it's a very classy and easy way to come into the the the world of the Vionier and the Condrieux, uh with uh affordable, let's say. Not saying it's cheap, it's just that uh almost everybody can afford to buy these kind of wines, yeah, and uh to it's a very good value for money.

SPEAKER_00 38:28

It is of course not very cheap, that is impossible. And we uh uh we just talked about when you're starting it, uh, about the decline of wine consumption in the world. That's also in France a big problem, because in the old days, uh Italy, France, and Spain were uh they they drank more than 100 liters per head.

SPEAKER_03 38:52

Yes, yeah, people were very thirsty, even the kids at the at the school they were awful almost some wines.

SPEAKER_00 39:00

I saw a friend of mine sending me an email or an app, it was and it was an an announcement from the Dutch from the j from the French government to advise not to drink more than one liter per day.

SPEAKER_03 39:16

Yes, it's it was another uh time. Uh but that's 40 years ago. Exactly, exactly. Uh that can also be referred to that famous French paradox where people thought, oh, French people die old and they they drink the most wine, so maybe and they ate uh yeah, they ate uh and uh drink a lot of alcohol and smoke like hell.

SPEAKER_00 39:39

Yeah, and and they get 95 years old.

SPEAKER_03 39:41

Not all of them, I can assure you, but uh no, these days are over. But also these these wines were lower in alcohol, they were uh mostly cut also with water, but it's sure that uh these consumption uh habits have evolved a lot. So these very entry-priced wines uh are dropping, the supermarket wines, uh, the below 10 euros wines, which are a bit standardized in their style, uh in their emotions, etc. This this market is is dropping seriously. Uh now the the problem we are facing is how do we approach the younger generation? Uh should we keep talking about uh terroirs and the percentage of oak or uh yeast or uh sulphites, or should we deliver a different message or uh maybe have an approach to make lighter wines to be more dynamic? It's a good question. You have the New World style, which is very oriented uh grape varieties, style and and uh brands. We don't know how to do that in France. It's like putting a brand on the wine is like an insult. But then again, if we only sell super high niche appellation, uh half of the vineyard is going to die, and that's probably the direction we're taking because we're only thinking niche, luxury, high-end, etc. So everything cannot be niche or high-end or or luxury. So it's it's I think it's really something we have to to think about right now. So it's one of the biggest challenges we face is how to work this uh entry price uh and make more easygoing wines more more attractive.

SPEAKER_00 41:29

Because the the the the new style is so I saw also this one, the entry level was 12.5 alcohol, yes, which is very okay. Yeah, uh I noticed that everybody, uh, and also I read it in a that the to start with the red wines, these are declining terribly, minus seven percent in one year or something. It's huge. And especially those red wines with 14.5 or even 15.5 alcohol. For instance, I know uh I talked to somebody and he said, Well, for instance, the Shiraz wines in Australia with cost in the supermarket seven, eight euros. This it nobody wants it anymore. No, they forget it, and uh so it's lower alcohol in the reds, or he also uh whites are more favorable because also the food is getting now a little more and more elegant, it's not that heavy anymore, and rose wines that's also very popular now.

SPEAKER_03 42:33

Yes, so uh it it is a big debate. Should we try to evolve the style that we find in some of the appellations or not? I had that very interesting debate with uh one time in a dinner in London with a Kornass producer. Makes very good wines, but very classic, old style, deep and intense cornas. I'm giving you an extreme example because you know cornas is a hundred percent Cera, is is a rich wine, and it it usually you need to wait a couple of years before it starts to be uh readable, you know. Uh and I was asking him in front of another producer if considering that he would change a little bit his methods, uh, and maybe do some uh semi-carbonic maceration to have a lighter style of uh cornas or whatever. And he said uh no, uh, I thought it like that. Uh cornas, you need to wait 10 years. Uh, that's it. If people are not happy, you know, that's it. I'm not going to change because it's the trend or whatever, but then again, it it was cornas, it's super small, it's still a niche. So he can stick to his recipe, he will always sell his wine because it's a niche, and if it's good in his niche, it doesn't have a problem. The the the problem is the is the mass market, yeah. And how do we address it? Uh, there's so there's the nature wine that has covered. A little bit of that segment on jurgen generation, which is still a niche and which is still very undefined.

SPEAKER_02 44:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 44:06

Because you ask 10 people who drink these kind of wines, how do you uh how do you describe it? You will get 10 very different answers. But in this in the style of these wines, you also find most of the times, and I'm not even talking about sulfur or anything, you find a uh a body style that is uh usually um lighter than the old style wine from the AOCs. So it's I think the debate will will go deeper and deeper. So let's see. Interesting time.

SPEAKER_00 44:43

But uh when I was young, a long time ago, I bought from Korna, I like the wines from August Klapp. Yes, they are very expensive now. In those days, it was 35 gilders, the 17 euro fifty. Forget it now. I don't know what cost August Klapp, I think 70, 80, 90 euros a bottle. If you find it, yes. Yeah, or even more, over 100, I think. Yeah, but these wines are really niche, but I really like them. I never buy them anymore because it's not really my I like more elegant drinking, that's why I drink burgundy and German spade bugunders, Pinot Noir from Germany, and so on. But in the old days, when I was a younger guy, I this was my style of wine. Yes. But um, I can imagine that younger people don't want this anymore. It's also and they're also not used to it, also.

SPEAKER_03 45:36

Yeah, yeah, because it's always linked to what you're uh used to taste or drink. Yeah. Your habits, your education. Uh that's that's very linked to that.

SPEAKER_00 45:45

That's the biggest problem, I think, from the wines from Bordeaux. I'm really a very nice, I'm really a Bordeaux drinker. Everybody thinks thinks I'm an I'm a Pinot Noir lover, which I am, but I also I like nice Bordeaux wines, and especially those with Cabernet Sauvignon. But younger people, for instance, and my son Mays, he's uh how old are you? 26 he he he doesn't prefer Bordeaux wines. No, and because he's not used because Bordeaux wines was all the last for from 2000 were far too expensive, in my view. I uh nobody actually I don't I don't buy Bordeaux wines for three, four, five, six, seven hundred euros plus for one bottle. And so they they they don't get a younger public. That's they they they they build their own, they grave their own graves, actually.

SPEAKER_02 46:42

Yeah, for a bit, I think uh that's true, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 46:45

But uh everybody's not playing on the same level there, also. There's a big discrepancy between the Grand Cru Chateau, which are owned by uh huge family or pension funds or whatever, yeah, uh that can afford to invest massively. Monsieur Arnaud, for instance.

SPEAKER_00 47:03

We're talking about I told you Monsieur Arnaud because he bought Chateau Griez.

SPEAKER_03 47:08

Yes, it's uh Pinot, Pinot, Monsieur Pinot Pinot for Chateau Grier with a few of other excellent domains, uh but then also the the majority of the volume in Bordeaux is is it's just AOC Bordeaux. So we're talking about that entry price between five to food to ten euro wines, and they get hit from all the sides, yeah. So yeah, that's the subject there again. Same for Languedoc, same for Côte d'Iron, it's it's the same thing everywhere.

SPEAKER_02 47:38

Yeah, but the wrong way to talking about those different kinds of uh yeah.

SPEAKER_00 47:42

Talking about Chateau Grief. Yes, it was bought by Monsieur Pinot, exactly, and now a bottle of Chateau Griot costs around 500 euros.

SPEAKER_03 47:51

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 47:51

Um, well, okay, what do you think about that? Is it good for the region or what is it?

SPEAKER_03 47:57

It's uh now you have to be careful. I think, first of all, in a general way, I think it's good that you have uh some of these groups that are still investing in the uh let's say uh uh in the French territories, okay? Because I mean you you know these special places will stay alive for generations because there's money behind it. Yeah, okay. So I think it's a good way of preserving some pieces of the territories. Uh that's my first point. Uh second point is that uh they do what the the best they can on these very small domains, uh like Chateau Grier, Clos de Tart, etc. Uh so it's very close to us. I've been there a few times. Uh it's only 2.5 hectares, and they do micro micro vinifications, like it's like a dollhouse when you go in there. You have all these very, very small uh uh tanks which are one, two hectoliters, and they have like 20-ish of these, so they do micro vinifications. Okay, it's like a it's really like a dollhouse, it's almost like a little game. It's it's it's uh it's super fun to see actually because they push to the extreme uh the selection of one barrel versus another, etc.

SPEAKER_00 49:18

They they they they make the the uh they make device separately per plot.

SPEAKER_03 49:25

Yeah, they have one hill and they divide this hill in like 15 different micro zones, which they vinify separately, and they they work their blends depending if they want to make a blend into the um Chateau Grier, they have a Condrieu and they have a Côte du Rhone, and so they depending on what they find in each of these uh barrels, yeah, they will decide what to do with the wines. So it's it's interesting to have you know people working like that. Uh they also have bring new people on a regular basis from Burgundy, etc. They have a good rotation, they have the best analogue engineers. So yeah, why not?

SPEAKER_00 50:06

I mean and and and do they share their knowledge also with when you ask something from how why are you doing this or why are you doing that? They give you a proper answer.

SPEAKER_03 50:15

Honestly, when they come to the place, and I've known already two different uh wine chiefs for this domain in five years. Uh they it's it's honestly they come with a lot of uh opening and they they take the time to go through all the historic domains of the area, first of all, to understand uh the how it's done here, and then appropriating the the what they know and try to do the best uh for their wines.

SPEAKER_00 50:41

Yeah, it's also an advantage from you then, because you can learn from course everybody can learn from everybody.

SPEAKER_03 50:47

It's uh we're lucky to be in an area where the it's a niche. Again, we're lucky of that. It's small, it's qualitative, there's the history, and then um competition is is not really uh going on. It's it's more about okay, uh this guy is inspiring or not to me because I like his method, and it's it's quite like that. It's not about uh some spying games or whatever.

SPEAKER_00 51:13

Like it used to be in the in the old days.

SPEAKER_03 51:15

It could have, maybe. So when there's too many differences, maybe it can become uh jealous. But honestly, I I don't see that. I don't I it's not from the the vision I have, okay. From the people that I met, the doors are easily opened. If we want to visit a neighbor or there's something, or if you need a barrel, whatever, it's I think it's quite open. Okay. Uh to share the supply of a new barrel maker. Uh okay, what do you think about this one? Uh so far better.

SPEAKER_00 51:43

Do you taste also with other producers sometimes?

SPEAKER_03 51:46

Yes, yes, I think it's very interesting, especially when uh you think about uh trying a new barrel maker, for example. And uh I mean you can tell you what you want, but in the end you have to taste. And you have to taste the same wine on separate barrel at the same age and think about am I going to try to put one or two in my next blend or not? These choices are have a heavy impact on the style of your wine. Okay, so uh you you need to go and taste with uh what uh and it's also the smartest argument of a barrel seller, he comes to your house because there's of course they all want to sell their barrel, they will say, Okay, I work with him, him, and him. And if it's not the case, uh you're not even going to speak with him because you don't have any ways of trying.

SPEAKER_00 52:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 52:34

So yes.

SPEAKER_00 52:35

Talking about those barrels, uh, what kind of wood do you use and what size of wood is it?

SPEAKER_03 52:41

So now maybe related to the oak, we can switch to the Condrieu. Yeah, we have a Condrieu now, Le Ravines. Exactly. So tell us about it. When a winemaker is lucky enough because it's at the 24. Yes. When one maker is lucky enough to own different parcels in the same appellation, he needs to think, he or she needs to think about how many wines he's going to make. Do we do one blend with all the parcels? Uh or do we do uh 10 different wines for whatever reasons? So at Domain Nero, uh we do four different condrios. We work on four hectares, so we have the luxury of playing around with we have the material, you know. First wine is a blend of our four parcels. We like to call it like Cuvé Domaine, it's where we get most of our volumes. Uh, for us, we do 10,000 bottles of this wine with Les Ravines. Okay, Les Ravines means uh when it rains really heavily on a parcel, it creates some crazy holes. Sometimes you know the water just you know goes wherever it wants. That's a ravine, okay? It's a remind us of the difficulty of working in these slopes every day. Um so it's a blend. We want it in this wine to have like a fresh and lean style of Condrieu. So going back to the barrels, uh, the use of oak there will be very important because we don't want to put too many richness around this wine. Uh, we will do a approximately because it depends every year, we're not like 5% uh base, but it's like half of the volume, they will go in a steel tank, and half of the volume will be dispatched in 400 liter barrels that have been already used one or two times. Oh, okay. Okay, so no new oak there. No new oak. Okay, no new oak. We work with two barrel makers for the Condrieux, which are both uh burgundies, they're uh Damy and Chassin.

SPEAKER_00 54:46

Okay, Chassin and Damy.

SPEAKER_03 54:47

Okay, okay, sure for Merceau basically.

SPEAKER_00 54:49

But 400 liters, is that common is that a common size? Because the Barrick normally is two twenty five.

SPEAKER_03 54:56

Yes, 225, 228. Uh this is the standard model. Um we see a lot more 400 now in our areas, 300, 400. After uh 10 years of trying different, uh we for us it it was the size that we like the best. Okay. Uh so we we we stick to that. Uh so yeah, this first wine is half steel tank, half old barrels, and you can see when you you stitch we already smell it.

SPEAKER_00 55:27

It's bit the first wine. There's the difference in wood is yeah, but it's not overwhelmed by the food, uh by the wood.

SPEAKER_03 55:35

Yeah, it's just supposed. You're not supposed to feel that, but you what you're supposed to feel right away that you're still in the viognier, but it's a chondrieu, so you have more intensity, more complexity, more power, but it's like a fresh and lean type of condrier. You're supposed to be easily drinkable.

SPEAKER_00 55:53

Yeah, yeah. But it's uh it's more heavier, it's more more structured. Uh this is also 13%, half percent more alcohol, but not that much. I've seen condriers in the in the in the past with 15% alcohol. Yes. And in this is 13. Are you looking for a little bit less alcohol?

SPEAKER_03 56:13

So that's also a good debate because uh the trend these days is of course uh more acidity, uh more tension, etc. That also has some extremes because at some point is how much are you willing to to go into that trend without uh disrupting the style of your region or the appellation? Yeah, uh, how does a condrieu uh should taste? Uh Condrieu is is is based on flavor and uh on a tasteful sensation, also, and the uh difficulty we can have some years with the maturities is that um the level of sugar will increase higher than the speed of the aromatic uh maturity. So when the weather plays too high with that, uh you at some point you have to choose to go and harvest to stop the increase of sugar, which will be alcohol basically. Um even though you know that your grape could be a bit more mature in terms of the perfect aromatic profile and tannins and sensation. So that's that's honestly uh that's decided the last week before the harvest. Yeah and it changes every day. Yeah, yeah. And at that time, I can tell you all the smart guys they tell you they know, but uh you know nobody knows. Uh depending on your history, depending on your sensation. Uh you have the analysis, uh, but uh you have to taste the grape as well. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 57:52

And sometimes you feel okay, no, it's not really, and that very moment you decide this plot we're going to exactly, exactly. Like uh Julian told us also the moment of picking is the most important moment. So and sometimes the team is ready to pick, and then at the end they decide at the last moment no, no, we don't do this plot, we do that plot.

SPEAKER_03 58:15

Exactly. That's uh that's one of the intense moments where everybody can be a bit uh edgy, and uh also depending on the weather, because uh if it rains, it's not uh you can't pick up the grapes correctly, it's it's not optimal. So you try to avoid that kind of situation, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 58:34

But then you just have to deal.

SPEAKER_03 58:38

No, no, no, no.

SPEAKER_00 58:40

But according to the according to me, to the intensity of the wine, you can do very nice stuff, yeah. Lang Langostin on Thai Way with curry and so on, I think.

SPEAKER_03 58:50

Yes, exactly. Vionier is uh generally not even on Condrieu, but uh very fun to pair with some spicy food, not hot spices, but it can be uh curries, saffran, yeah, yellow curries exactly. Yeah, and uh I love it with uh Indian or Thai foods, it goes very well with the creamy risotto, for example. It's uh yeah.

SPEAKER_00 59:14

Risotto with language I I get a little bit hungry. No, no, no, no, no, no. I get hungry now. Hungry. No, this is a very nice to make a combination with uh nice, very nice.

SPEAKER_03 59:27

It's one of these Condrieux you can easily have by the glass because you see how uh easy to to is it to it's it's a lead in fresh Condrieu, uh, but also with some fresh dishes uh like raw fish uh or even just a salad, it would be perfect also scallops, scallops, or that kind of stuff.

SPEAKER_00 59:44

Yeah, yeah. How long can you stock it up?

SPEAKER_03 59:47

That's yeah. Good question. Do Condrieu age well? How much can we age them? Ah, that's a never-ending uh question. I can give you uh my opinion, but it's only going to be an opinion and not the honest God's answer. No, no, no. It's uh um, first of all, I think the first answer is how used are you to drink uh aged uh white wines or not? Are you used to knowing the aging potential? Uh, do you like wines when they go a bit more into uh petrol funnel mode? Are you used to drinking these wines or not? If you have no use and you prefer the strength of young wines, you don't need to age them, you know.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:33

No.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:34

Uh then it will depend on the strength of the terroir. Okay. I like Raven. I prefer Raven when it's a bit young, it's got that nice energy.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:45

Uh but the wines we will drink next, Vernon has a lot of strength in this famous terroir. It's a bit like the the Morachet in Burgundy. Uh, Vernon is a famous plot in in Condri.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:57

No, no, we we do first uh Le Ravine 2023.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:01

Yeah, yeah. But I was just saying different depending on the terroir, okay, then the aging potential can be different.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:07

Okay, good.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:09

Exactly. So I would drink Raven within the the the two first years. In the coming, I would wait a little bit, maybe.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:16

Okay. Yeah, that's what you say, what you're used to. I'm used to drink older white burgundies, for instance, but not everybody is a fan of no no no no no. But there's a big difference between aged white wine and oxidated white wines.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:32

Yeah, no, no, yes. But for example, yesterday well, we had that dinner I told you about at uh Marius Wine Bar in Den Haag. And uh so we had uh Leravin uh 19 and 2319. Yes, and to to compare. Okay, and uh half of the people seated preferred the young ones, half have preferred the uh the older ones. Some said uh by the glass, I prefer the young one, and with the dish I prefer the uh older version. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:04

So you know, but they don't get 15 years old or something.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:10

I don't think Ravin uh should should be waited that long. No, I think now uh Vernon could easily go into that mode.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:18

Okay, we will see, but we will do the Vernon afterwards to compare with Mondrochess uh give me a high expectation of the wine, but it's uh completely different that is 2023. Yeah, it's the same wine, but one year older.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:32

Different than notes immediately.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:34

Yeah, there's already a difference and a very big difference in the nose because the first one was very free to peach, yeah, yeah, yeah. And and and apricot, yeah, and this is not that very primary fruit.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:48

No, that's more uh yeah, more complex, I should call it.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:51

And now the wood is a little it's coming a little bit more.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:54

I think it has to open up a bit, but yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:57

Do you do you decant Conrieu?

SPEAKER_03 1:03:02

Again, that's uh that's a very debate. You ask ten someliers, you have ten different uh opinion, honestly. Um I wouldn't because I I prefer to be a master of the the the time uh in my glass rather than to having to to just when when it's decanted, it's too late, you know, at some point. Yeah, so I'd rather do my experience in my glass, having then it's oh, it's already too late from the from the decanter.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:32

Okay. Because we drink this now from uh Riedel glasses, and then we have the Feloche Shira glass. This is because it's a little bit wider, but it's not as wide as the we were discussing when we started uh this afternoon about the glass for the Vignette, and I had the Chardonnay glass. I don't have a Vignette glass, but I I thought we can do the Chardonnay glass from Riddle, but that's very white, so the mic wine might get very plummy then. I don't know, but it could be.

SPEAKER_03 1:04:05

I think it's very uh um I would say uh I think everybody has their preferences. I think that's very like private. I prefer when the when this the smells are a bit like uh not stuck into the glass, but uh you have to dive your nose into it, and then you get a proper for me. If it's too open, you kind of uh I'm afraid I'm afraid it will go away. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:31

Okay, nice. But this already one year further, and what you said, two, three years is very good, very okay for you you you see already uh some kind of evolution, okay.

SPEAKER_03 1:04:43

In uh into in two vintages that are it's been a bit hotter in 23. You had some heats, but uh honestly the vintage are in pretty much in the same style. There's not a huge difference like you would have on 22, for example. Uh yes, one, two, three years aging is okay for this wine, in my opinion. Yeah, but you will not gain uh anything by waiting more.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:08

Yeah, and again, uh what we said uh scallop, white meat, poultry, chicken. Yes.

SPEAKER_03 1:05:16

But I would I would I would stay to something quite fresh with these wines, and uh and but the longer you you weigh the wines, you see it it's getting rounder, a bit more creamy, also. So maybe the more you can go into this type of dishes uh which have a bit more uh structure.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:36

Yeah, like we talked about the 2024. I like more by the glass, and this is more like with food, I think.

SPEAKER_03 1:05:41

Yeah, that's m one of the uh common answers I got yesterday when there was a comparison with uh with two vintages.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:48

Yeah. And around twelve degrees. Yeah. Not too cold.

SPEAKER_03 1:05:54

Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:54

Twelve degrees is okay.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:56

Yeah, if you drink it too cold, it's uh a shame of the wine. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:06:00

That's also a great uh let's say uh a problem for the someliers. Uh especially uh if I think about France, uh like in Lyon, for example, you're in the summer, yeah. Uh you're in a terrace, uh having the proper temperature during a whole meal is is quite complicated. So you'd rather have a bit colder or in a bucket, yeah. And then it warms up. You put it, you pour it into the into the glass after five minutes, it's perfect. After ten minutes, it's too hot.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:30

So but what I do when it is very hot, I I serve it while it's too cold. I keep it in my uh bucket with ice. Yes. I serve it too cold, but I always do not that much in the glass. Yes, just a bit. Because when you do a full glass, you need no no it's it's 20 minutes or something to empty it, and that's too long.

SPEAKER_03 1:06:49

I think it the the most important in these uh situations is just to have a two-second chat with the client. Yeah. And it will tell all first thing is you tell the client, you think about that subject for him. So the first thing is, oh, the guy is actually doing his job. He he won he's thinking about how I should drink the wine perfectly. So that's the first good sign of service. And the second is if the client has an argument or his idea or whatever, you can, you know, you you can work that out, and then that's it. And then you you know already he's gonna have a good time. Better than if you just put it on a bucket or whatever, maybe he's used to another system, yeah, maybe he's gonna say, ah, it's too cold or it's too hot or whatever. You don't you just explain and you you open the the subject and then people want to learn.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:43

But a good a good sommelier keeps very good in mind about the temperature. So when you say, for instance, uh I was a few years ago, I was in a wine bar in London called Noble Rod, very famous wine bar, and then they ask me, I I ordered a bottle of Beaujolais. Because it was it was all 28 degrees or something outside. So I bottled a bottle of of uh Beaujolais, and he said, at what temperature do you want the wine? And I said around 14, please. I got a Pinot Noir glass and then he put an ice book at on it, and the guy put a bottle in, and every time when he passed my table, he put the bottle, filled it with his hand, and then he put it or inside the ice again, or next to it, outside. So he could more or less keep regulate the temperature, and I didn't see anything, he did it by himself, and that is what a good somewhere is.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:42

Yeah, but that they they are hard to find these days.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:46

We have lots of somay in our audience. So watch out.

SPEAKER_03 1:08:50

It's all about uh time uh availability, uh versus if you have to run because it's very busy, it's not doable for every table. Just the fact that we think about that, I think for the client is uh me as a customer. I I I like to see that uh people serving think about that, yeah, because that makes half of the pleasure of the wine is having properly served. Like when the cook is is cooking a meat, he thinks about the the the cooking. Yeah, you also get the question how do you like your meat?

SPEAKER_00 1:09:21

Yeah, exactly. Uh this wine is doing 50 54 euros by the Generein again. Yeah, General did all the bottles this afternoon. I told you before, and uh we have to mention that, of course. Uh 54, and it's it's for this kind of quality condrieux, very nice price, yeah. I think. Uh, can we go to the Vernon? What is the okay? Tell us about the Vernon.

SPEAKER_03 1:09:46

Vernon is uh is a very famous plot in the Appalachian. So we have a small parcel there, so we're going to isolate uh a harvest batch from the center of this parcel. Uh what's special about this parcel? It's uh it's a decomposed granite. Uh we call it Gnace, it's it's mostly sandy. Gneis. Yes, exactly. It's a very weird word.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:11

Same word as in Germany.

SPEAKER_03 1:10:12

Yeah, you see it also, yeah. G G-N uh E-I-S-S.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:19

No, in Germany it's not S S, there's something different. I think we go to skip that. Yeah, I think also sorry, slip of the tongue. It's sandy soils.

SPEAKER_03 1:10:38

But uh so so exactly it's it's so it will bring a lot of uh floral uh aromatic bouquet to this wine, and it has a lot of intensity. So these this terroir has a great aging potential. There's no limit there. So it's again, should we drink it now, in two years, in five years? Honestly, it depends on what you're used to and what you like. Yeah, uh, so everybody has a different preference.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:08

But these are wines are very old, huh?

SPEAKER_03 1:11:10

Exactly, they're from the 40s in this area.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:13

40s, yeah, 1940s. I I saw on your website 70 years of age, but 40s and 25 years now. It's uh it's 85 years. 85 years.

SPEAKER_03 1:11:24

Yes, exactly. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Not all of them, uh, but it's between average in this in this in this uh parcel, the oldest are from the 40s. So 40s, uh 50s, and 60s, that's like the the main composition of this parcel. Okay. I know because I looked it up and some uh some some guy wanted to buy like very few grapes from us, and I had to look under our uh CVI to see line by line what were the dates of the first plantations, and we have a few rows which are the oldest that are from the 1940s. Okay, so yeah. Oh nice, very old. Yeah, exactly. More rich color immediately.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:05

Okay, yeah, yeah. And the nose is already uh more rich, more a little bit more wood, also.

SPEAKER_03 1:12:11

Yes, so uh we if we think about the uh potential of this wine, uh we adapt the uh aging mix a little bit, so we will again keep uh half of the volume in steel tanks and cheers and uh the other half in oak again 400 liters. Now in the mix we have one new oak barrel, one near old barrel, one, and it's gonna be a chassin chassin barrel.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:38

Exactly.

SPEAKER_03 1:12:39

Uh 400 liters also, yeah. It has that very burgundy toasty effect. It's a medium toast, medium toast, medium, okay. Uh and yes, so when the wine is is young, you can feel that hint of toastiness, and then after two or three years it fades away. It's supposed to support the wine on the long run, and not you know, you're not what you feel when you taste the wine at first. So then again, the time, the moment when you drink this wine has its importance, also depending how much you like the uh integrity of the that small piece of new oak into the mix uh in time.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:20

Okay, very nice because it's it's very layered, yeah, there's a lot of complexity in the in the and a very long taste, also.

SPEAKER_02 1:13:27

The aftertaste is enormously keeping going, keep on going, yeah. But it's very clear, it's very clean, like the taste. You can taste every layer.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:37

Yeah. Nice wine. Oh, with Morel. Okay. With the the uh parasole? Uh oh yeah, mushrooms. Mushrooms.

SPEAKER_03 1:13:50

Yes, le Maury.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:52

Exactly. Le Mauri. Exactly. Nice sweet bread with Morie. Oh, yeah. Good idea.

SPEAKER_03 1:13:58

You feel that um hey acidity is a big word, but there's a a bitterness, we call it the noble bitterness of Condrieu. Okay, you have the noble Botritis, you have to okay. In our region, we we talk about that because it's a very strong point that defines the Condrieu style. Condrieu is a viognier with a noble bitterness at the end of the it's one of the characters that define these wines.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:26

Noble bitterness. Exactly. Because for me, nice wines. I know noble noble botrytis, I know, but noble bitterness. Exactly.

SPEAKER_03 1:14:32

No, no, it's true. And you have to feel that in order to want to keep going, you know, to a second glass. It's it's part of the the wine energy to have that. That that really is part of the the soil identity of Condri.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:48

It's 13.5 alcohol, but it doesn't show the alcohol is very integrated into the wine.

SPEAKER_03 1:14:56

Yes, and again, it's uh it's one of the first parcels we harvest. This uh this this one.

SPEAKER_00 1:15:03

Okay, because it gets uh it is on very high altitude or not?

SPEAKER_03 1:15:07

No, it's around 300 ish meters. Uh but uh it's one where the uh the maturity is one of the the most advanced. So usually it it's the uh the go the go parcel is this one, usually.

SPEAKER_02 1:15:21

Yeah, yeah. But it's fruity, the acidity is nice, it's all like in and yeah, yeah, it's very drinkable, you know.

SPEAKER_00 1:15:28

Yeah, I'm not a really a V omnier fan, you know that I know that. But yeah, I'm a Riesling fan.

SPEAKER_03 1:15:34

Different style, of course.

SPEAKER_00 1:15:36

Yeah, yeah, yeah. But but when you um when um this is very acidic, acid, and it's the mineral that we like. Yeah, yeah, that's the kind of wine we like.

SPEAKER_03 1:15:45

Yeah, yeah. It's I hear that often, and for me it's a good uh it's a good thing I like to hear is I'm usually not a big viewier fan, but I love Condrieu. And but Condrieux is is different because of these soils. Yeah, that it's the only place in France where you have viogniers grown on this kind of soils. Yeah, this is why it works. This is why it works. The uh the only other places I've tasted a vionier which had these similarities was uh South African. Very high soil. And uh yeah, yeah, was very interesting.

SPEAKER_00 1:16:19

Okay, nice. Very nice. No one 0.8 hectares, that's not a lot. So you don't have that much.

SPEAKER_03 1:16:28

No, we have like uh two, three thousand bottles per year max.

SPEAKER_00 1:16:31

Okay. And then you have an even a higher one, it's on the flute in the long bottle.

SPEAKER_03 1:16:37

Yes, we do have another wine which is called Heritage. Oh, yeah, it basically means the heritage in a flute bottle uh to pay tribute to the history.

SPEAKER_00 1:16:49

Chateau Grier is also in that long bottle.

SPEAKER_03 1:16:51

Exactly. Why? Because in the old days until the 50s, all the Condriuse were flute shape bottles.

SPEAKER_00 1:16:57

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 1:16:57

In these bottles, in all the regions, all the Condrieux.

SPEAKER_00 1:17:01

Oh, no, no, no, no. And in brown, huh?

SPEAKER_03 1:17:04

Exactly, orange, crazy colors. Okay, and so there's a lot of different uh theories to why they switched to burgundy bottles. Uh, it has been for uh also at that time Condrieux was not very famous. The name Vionier was more put forward than the name of the appellation. Uh so it was maybe a bit easier to sell burgundy-shaped bottles, yeah, easier also to uh manipulate, yeah, and also the uh the material they used to make these crazy colors was less and less authorized, also. So all of these reasons uh they they they they linked the evolution to a burgundy bottle. But this is why you also have a few domains that still have these bottles to you know to to remind us of the past. Okay, Chateau Grier, uh Quiron, Vernet, us on one wine. You have a few domains that still have these. Not uncommon to find these these bottles.

SPEAKER_00 1:18:02

Is it nowadays uh because it's not that really uh cheap, is it difficult to sell your wines or do you is it quite easy, still still easy?

SPEAKER_03 1:18:14

So it's uh it's easier uh with uh Cotroti, for example, like the demand is a bit higher uh than with Condrieu. Uh but still we are in a niche and most of the wines are sold, so we we can't really complain about that.

SPEAKER_00 1:18:31

Uh in the in the old days, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:18:34

Yeah, in the old days it was it was harder, but the harder to sell. Of course, but the quality of the wines in time with the quality of distribution has helped to position it this wine as a great white wine. And so now when once this job is made and in the quality improves every year, also that helps to keep the standard.

SPEAKER_00 1:18:58

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 1:18:59

Uh now that being said, uh internationally it's uh this year is complicated. Yeah. And you know, uh there are fa there are cycles. So it's been a crazy good cycle after COVID. Now it's a bit down, and then it will start again, I hope next year. It's just like that. I don't think it's linked really to one appellation or the other. I mean, there's a general entry-level crisis for the wine, which we're not uh fully concerned because we are lucky to be on this niche of the crew from the Rhone Valley. Yeah, uh, like some burgundies are have amazing crews, etc. Uh, but still we we we should we should be lucid on the general situation. Yeah, like uh we can't increase prices every year, even though our charges increase every year. Uh we we have to be realistic about that.

SPEAKER_00 1:19:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:19:51

So we have to be very careful. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:19:54

Everybody has to be very careful because we talk to famous producers, and everybody so it is not going that as easy anymore as about five, six, seven years ago. Yeah, the prices received a ceiling.

SPEAKER_02 1:20:07

Yeah, yeah. People cannot pay more than they are already paying, but the prices are going off, so they have to stagnate the prices a bit and then wait for different moments to inflation is also very high.

SPEAKER_00 1:20:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:20:19

Our costs they keep increasing, whether we want it or not, because you need the same amount of people and more to do the job, because the more we go, the more organic we are. Okay. And then for that you need you need a lot of people, and the tractors, uh exactly the cooling, everything. I mean, the raw materials, they increase the bottles, the bottles, so the all of that barrels if it's just you know five percent, ten percent every every year, and then that's your margin, and then you're like, okay, uh, and then the wine shop tells you we can't increase the price anymore. So you have to think about uh how are we gonna cut costs?

SPEAKER_02 1:20:59

Exactly.

SPEAKER_03 1:20:59

And that's that's I mean, we were having this debate this morning with the team, like uh with the number of people this season and doing this operation or not, so which is very linked to the weather in the end. So you can't do it.

SPEAKER_02 1:21:13

Yeah, if you have nice weather, then you have less cost, right?

SPEAKER_03 1:21:15

Yeah, you you at some points you need less treatment, you need less labouring, etc. So that's it's very weather related, but uh yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:21:25

So this Condri Vernon is 69 euros. Yeah, it's a very nice wine, and uh yeah, okay. Also, yeah, then you make some reds, also. Of course. Sira.

SPEAKER_02 1:21:42

What do you think about Shira, Marcel?

SPEAKER_00 1:21:45

I like Shira. Okay, okay. I'm a big fan of North Northern Rome. Same. I'm not that big fan of Australian Shira, yeah, because for me it's too jammy.

SPEAKER_02 1:21:58

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:21:58

Not everybody I'm going a little bit, so and sometimes, of course, uh I I drink nice uh uh Australian Shiraz, but for me it's too heavy, too bald. But Northern Ron Shira, like Cotroti and Hermitage. Well, I'm a big fan of that. Same, yeah, yeah. We had um not that long ago to 2001 Cotroti. It was La Turca, yeah. We had drinkable, yeah, it was quite good. You had a good time, yeah. And the La Landon we had, and so on. Yeah, so and I like uh very much the wines from uh uh from um Gigel. And yeah, yeah, yeah, Gigal, but also the uh Hermitage from um Charf. Oh yeah, small guys I'm very spoiled and I like the Hermitage Blanc and Rouge.

SPEAKER_03 1:22:58

But I asked this because I smelled this wine and I was saying I I like this very much and I didn't taste it yet, but this is the uh so again with like the white, we have different uh tiroirs, and uh we also have some sira in the plain of Condrieu. Okay, uh actually not only in the plain but also on the top of one Condrieu parcel because on top of the hill there is a plateau, I don't know how to say a flat zone, and at some point the there's a limit on the Condrieu appellation or Cotroti, even is the same uh with the height. If it's too high, too much higher, it goes back into IGP. So it's in the lower ground and on the high grounds, like village and hot coat, for us it's IGP.

SPEAKER_00 1:23:48

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. And and how many meters is it more or less?

SPEAKER_03 1:23:51

Is it between it's between uh like uh above three hundred and fifty something? It gets it gets back to to IGP. Yeah, and under it's uh uh between the national road and the road.

SPEAKER_00 1:24:06

Okay, okay. How many meters is that? 250 or something?

SPEAKER_03 1:24:11

On the on the national road, yeah, it's a bit below. Yeah, it must be yeah, 150 or something. Something like that.

SPEAKER_00 1:24:18

Okay, but above 350, it gets IK IGP.

SPEAKER_03 1:24:21

Yeah, it's not exactly to the meter, but basically on top of the hill it goes back to to IGP or Côte du Ron. Like in Burgundy. Exactly, exactly.

SPEAKER_00 1:24:30

It starts with A. Yes, it goes up the hill and goes back to Haute Côte d'Union. Exactly. Exactly, exactly the same exactly the same uh spirit.

SPEAKER_03 1:24:42

So we have we have these grapes from uh down and up, uh these sira grapes. Okay, and uh here, just like we do with our first viognier, we try to make a very uh fruity, uh central, accessible syrah. You know what you describe, the the jammy, heavy syra, that's the opposite of it. Uh you have uh from the first nose the markers of the northern syrah, which is uh uh peppery, uh very dark, spicy, uh and and with a nice freshness type of syrah.

SPEAKER_00 1:25:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:25:16

Also red fruit, so yeah, also fair. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:25:19

But that peppery, you smell when you smell this.

SPEAKER_03 1:25:22

You know it's syrah, it has the body of a syrah because it's it's like uh we don't do a carbonic maceration here. It's easy it's an easy to drink wine, but we we uh we do like a uh a normal maceration. It's just that we don't it's more infused, we don't we do very low extraction on this wine. Yeah, we don't do any pige, it's only two weeks.

SPEAKER_00 1:25:46

And then and then the wine goes pump and bovers or what? No. Is it is it fermented in uh stainless steel?

SPEAKER_03 1:25:53

It's so we do the harvest. We do first of all, we do uh a very severe selection of the grape during the harvest, okay, to avoid any rot or any problem with the hand on the field, exactly. Then there's a table uh selection with also another table which takes off the um the the the stamping so you do the the sorting table first and then the destampant exactly we destamp everything, almost everything, like 950. Exactly, 95. We'd leave some at the bottom of the tank to as a filter, okay, you know, but uh it's it's more uh logistic thing than uh like a recipe, you know.

SPEAKER_01 1:26:35

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 1:26:36

Uh we distamp, especially on this wine. Uh then we do the uh maceration fermentation in a in a concrete tank. Yeah that is only made for for the for the vinification of the red, okay, uh, because they're easy to work also from the top, they're super isolated, temperature control, okay. It's like a good kitchen we can work on. So in this type of wine, we try to extract the tannin as as low as possible. We're not going to do pige. We do maybe one or two remontage in the three first days, and then we let it be as as a maximum. Okay. When the fermentation is finished, we we drop the juices and then we will have the press also. And then we bring the juice downstairs in the barrels because there everything will be in barrels. Yeah, okay. And we use the older barrels of the domain for this wine. Okay. The one the barrels that have been used for Cotroti, Saint Joseph, Croz Hermitage, and then finally, uh on the their fifth year, they will go for the IGP.

SPEAKER_00 1:27:47

And it's also 400 liters?

SPEAKER_03 1:27:49

It's a mix of 400 and 228.

SPEAKER_00 1:27:51

Okay. Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_03 1:27:52

Yeah. It's just we want our oldest oak. And then after this wine, the the oak goes away. Yeah. Because also. We feel that after like five or six times being used, nothing left, you have too many risk of going crazy. Uh, you know, we have a good we wash them between each wine with the proper steam, and then you know, uh, at some point you take out some wood, and then it becomes a bit too dangerous to use it again, again, again. That's our opinion. So much bacteria also too much risk, and uh yeah, so it goes away. Okay, and you leave it there for 12 months, right? Uh 14-15 months. Okay. Uh, and then yeah, and used wood. We bottle it in in winter, yes.

SPEAKER_00 1:28:37

Okay. Oh, that's okay, nice. Not that much alcohol, also, 12.5, huh?

SPEAKER_02 1:28:44

Yeah, it's very accessible, I would like to say.

SPEAKER_03 1:28:46

Yeah, yeah. That's also probably because of the uh the the location of the parcel in the plane. It takes a bit more heat, less heat than uh looking at the sun on the uh on the on the hillside.

SPEAKER_00 1:29:00

Yeah, yeah. It's a little bit higher, so temperature in the evening goes a little bit down. You get more f refreshness in the wine. Exactly.

SPEAKER_03 1:29:09

So we're we're looking to have uh uh also a very accessible and uh distinguished northern moon syrup at an affordable uh price.

SPEAKER_02 1:29:20

Yeah, yeah. That's uh again 22 euros, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:29:24

That's uh for 22 euros you have a beautiful wine.

SPEAKER_02 1:29:29

Yeah, yeah. And a very nice wine to get again to get to know your winery.

SPEAKER_03 1:29:33

Yeah, yeah. It's it's a good uh way of entering the world of northern searers in the world.

SPEAKER_02 1:29:38

Yeah, if you like this, then you can uh step up your game to the next bottle.

SPEAKER_00 1:29:43

Because after this we don't have it, we have the cross hermitage and we have the Saint Joseph. Exactly. I know the Saint Joseph, I don't but and after that we have the Cotroti. And you have you have two hectares of Cotroti.

SPEAKER_03 1:30:00

Yes, we work on two parcels. Uh one is called uh Basnon, it's the first uh Cotroti parcel that exists when you are in Condrieu and you go north, okay. First parcel, first lieued is basinot. Okay, so it's the blonde side of the blonde side of the blonde side. Yeah, there's a you know a lot of people saying there's a blonde side of Cotroti and a brune side, mostly due to the the soil colour, which is uh is more sandy and decomposed in the in the south, and it's more gnace, it's more sorry, schist into the north. So you see these black rocks. So this it's a general expression, mostly coming from uh from Gigal, because they're their most famous wines in terms of volume called Brunei is Brune Blonde, so yes.

SPEAKER_00 1:30:49

And they say it comes from those girls who inherited it, but that's a very nice story, but it doesn't correct. Forget it. Like Don Perrion, who invented uh champagne. Yeah, no, no, no, no, no, no. It's all about stories.

SPEAKER_03 1:31:07

Stories are also important, uh, because you know they transport messages, yeah. And houses like uh Gigal, like Chaputé, like Jaboulet are also have been transporting messages, and then Texel, also the dream of the wines of our region everywhere in the world, and I think it's super important on different levels of wines from negos and from amazing parcels. So I mean uh uh we all go into the same direction. Yeah. I think we benefited the small family house from the job that has been made from these bigger domains. Yeah, and so yes.

SPEAKER_00 1:31:43

You said uh 2024 was a very hot vintage.

SPEAKER_03 1:31:47

Uh no, not 24.

SPEAKER_00 1:31:49

Okay, it was why I only see 13% alcohol. That's for normal norm.

SPEAKER_03 1:31:55

Uh no, no, no, exactly. No, 24 was not so hot. Uh 23 had some some really drought. 24 had a lot of rain. Uh, it was quite a cold vintage.

SPEAKER_00 1:32:06

Oh, like in Burgundy, of course. Yes, exactly, exactly.

SPEAKER_03 1:32:10

21 and 24 were there were quite cold vintages, yeah, or and rainy, so not a lot of structure into these wines, quite refined, nice uh acidity. And so the other parcel I was about to tell you about is uh La Veillière. Yeah, La Villière is on top of the town enpuis in the heart of Cotroti, and it's there it's a true black slope into the schist. Very, very steep, uh 50% steep. It's only it's hard just to stay up when you're in the middle of the parcel. Uh so it's a very nice hillside facing the road. So, what we do with this Cotroti is uh a blend with the two parcels and with a 15-month uh oak aging, 20% oak. Yeah, okay. And here, uh, when we think about cotrottis, um styles can be very different, depending, of course, where the grape comes from and also from the way you handle the winemaking and the aging. What we're trying to do with this wine is to have quite uh again, like with our fresh first conduit used to have a fresh and lean type of uh cotrottis. We're not looking for over-extraction and a lot of new oak and super richness. Uh, we have another wine that has this uh this specification. This one we're looking for like a Pinot style of cotrotty, it's more floral. It is of course you feel the structure of a cotrotty, yeah, but it has a fresh style of balance for a cotrotty. Yeah, it's not super extracted, you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_00 1:33:48

But I I I also I always think Cotroti is a very uh elegant wine, also. Everybody thinks, oh well, Shirah, it's all very bold. But Cotroti for me, it never is actually, because I know the wines from Gigal very good, very well, of course. And uh and all I always like the balance in the wine, it's very nice.

SPEAKER_03 1:34:12

So I'm quite familiar with uh I think we have the same uh uh problematic as you can find in some um in some Barolo with the Nebbiolo. It can be um also sometimes high in alcohol, it can be very powerful, but then it it's all about that balance uh between purity, uh how much do you need to push the extractions? You don't need to push that much, actually. You just need to be uh to to try to make some sensual wines, you know.

SPEAKER_02 1:34:43

Yeah, it's uh it's like a dance between elegance and power. Exactly.

SPEAKER_03 1:34:47

Exactly, exactly. And here we're going to voluntarily uh undermine we don't want too much extraction on that wine, you know. We want it to be like light style of cotrotty, uh so pumping overs. Very, very little, no, no pige as well.

SPEAKER_00 1:35:05

Pouge, no no, no, not on this wine, and five percent viognier in it.

SPEAKER_03 1:35:10

Exactly, and the parcel of baston, and the bottom of this parcel you have like 10 rows of viognier, so it's of course co-uh fermented, co-harvested, it's co-planted. It has to be it's already in the blend already. Exactly, exactly. Into the appellation guidelines of Cotroti, it's authorized to go up to 20% of beunier, yeah, which is for many people uh something a bit crazy to mix the white with the reds, but it's been there historically. Okay, uh, but it has to be co-planted and co-fermented. Okay. Can't come from another parcel.

SPEAKER_00 1:35:46

It has to be it's obliged to yes, yes.

SPEAKER_03 1:35:48

You can't take from another parcel and then bring it over, it has to be uh for same terroir. Okay, same, yeah. And we harvest at the same time.

SPEAKER_00 1:35:57

No, it's very special, very nice. You can keep sniffing on it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's giving giving.

SPEAKER_02 1:36:04

But immediately you you can experience that more richness, there's more complexity with this. Um you can follow the wine. You like to follow a wine during some times? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:36:15

This wine after five, six years becomes uh very floral. It's like uh it's like a bucket of rose which is slowly uh fanning, and you know, you say not a fresh rose, but you see a rose after a few days. Uh it's a very elegant touch as well, very soft tannins. We're looking to have uh cotroutine to that direction.

SPEAKER_00 1:36:36

Yeah, nice, very nice. And you can do it with what with a little bit of a lamp shoulder or something.

SPEAKER_03 1:36:42

Exactly, exactly. A nice, nice meal.

SPEAKER_00 1:36:46

Cheeses to your style, eh? Mais is happy.

SPEAKER_02 1:36:53

So uh we are already on uh one hour 36 minutes or 37 minutes.

SPEAKER_00 1:36:59

Wow, 37.

SPEAKER_02 1:37:00

Yeah, one hour 37. Almost 140.

SPEAKER_00 1:37:03

Okay, flying by. Well, actually, we we are already. I I was also we have an um uh we didn't talk about biological farming.

SPEAKER_03 1:37:11

Yes, so that is the whole region has moved a lot into that direction. Uh it's a good thing. Um, we did a conversion, okay. So 10 years ago we adapted all of our cultural methods to go into the organic uh conversion. We went through we had the the uh we did the three years uh conversion process, we were accredited, and then we decided we're going to stay. Uh actually, we decided we're not going to go into the label. We're gonna remain with the methods we use to do the the conversions, but we want to remain free to intervene if uh I don't know, we have to protect the flower. Like for example, now the flower is happening and it's it's predicting rain for 15 days. Well, yeah. And if we want to do one treatment out of 10, which is not organic, which is sustainable, sustainic, we want to be able to do it. Yeah, understandable. And and that's it. We don't want to risk uh 1% of the organic uh guidebook for uh 20% or 30% of the uh of the harvest. Yeah. That's a debate, but we work organic for the whole thing. Uh we have we're more strict than the organic levels of sulfite, of uh in the cellar, we we are uh under these levels, but uh in the vines, we want to we want to make sure we get the grapes, you know. And if we want to intervene one or twice during the year uh in this label and not this label, we want to be able to do it. So we're very uh pragmatic about that, and we don't mind uh talking about it because we did the whole conversion process, we went through with it, we tasted all the methods. Some work, some don't work. In in one parcel of Condriux, you have three different methods of culture. Uh, one we will plant some uh herbs because it's a fresher zone, the other one is too dry, we will do it differently, we will plow the soils, etc. So we know pretty much now how to deal with that in the most organic way, but uh still we don't want to be uh restricted by like uh rules, rules, rules. So you know, and then when people ask, we just take them to the vineyard and we let them see, yeah, and they can judge by themselves. Oh, that's that's it.

SPEAKER_00 1:39:32

Yeah, okay, yeah, nice. I drink that, it's nice, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:39:36

It's very nice.

SPEAKER_00 1:39:37

Very nice cottery. Okay, uh Adrian, thank you very much.

SPEAKER_03 1:39:42

Thank you very much for inviting me for the new new this podcast.

SPEAKER_00 1:39:46

Yeah, yeah. I hope the uh the listeners will enjoy and uh will sip a few glasses of yogni and uh you you can share with your with your French French friends, of course, yeah, and then we will explode because we have 45 million French people, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:40:05

Also, I don't know if they all speak English, but only 10 can speak English not ten million.

SPEAKER_02 1:40:11

No, yeah, no, I I think we have a good understanding of your uh winery, uh winery, uh and and what you create. Uh and uh yeah, we learned uh all together, uh the listeners also.

SPEAKER_03 1:40:23

So uh it's a pleasure for me to to come back every year to the Netherlands to uh to be able to do some small client events with all the generous partners. And so uh yes, if you you want to taste the wines, I'm sure you can find some quite easily.

SPEAKER_00 1:40:37

Yeah, yeah, they're very in the show notes already. So to the this and in the show notes, we put all the wines in the show notes, and uh this one also the 65 euros, so very, very, very nice pot of tea. Yeah, you you don't have you don't have kick out for that. No, this is a very nice wine, extremely nice.

SPEAKER_02 1:40:55

Let's uh cheers on that.

SPEAKER_00 1:40:56

Cheers on that, and uh thank you, Ariel. Thank you.