SPEAKER_01 0:00

Hello. Today we have our new podcast. Yeah. In English. In English today. Something different, yeah. It's already our uh fourth podcast. Word right, yeah. Oh Jesus Christ, time flow time flies. Yeah, time flies. Today we do it in English because uh we were invited today by Annie Lawson. Well, invited, we we are today we are in the Mosel Valley. We are at the man uh at Weinghut Dr. Lawson, and because a lot of Dutch and Vlaanderen don't speak uh German, we do it in English. Yeah, and you agreed to do that? That's no problem. There's no problem for you because you're a world traveler, Ernie. Yes, sir. Yes, yes, yes. So and we we we start right away. Yes, sure. Who is Ernie? Oh, who is Ernie? No, uh not too much.

SPEAKER_03 0:56

No, well, I mean, as I said, um well, I'm the the now the current owner of the Dr. Lozen estate. Uh I took over the estate um in 1988 from my father. Um it's a typical, I would say a typical family estate uh as we have here in Germany. It's about nearly 200 years in the family. Um and since 200 years we're producing reasoning, you know. Sounds a little bit boring to do the same thing for 200 years, but as I always say, uh it's you know, we are if you if you uh come and visit the area, it's super beautiful. But as I always say, it's uh in the middle of fucking nowhere. Yeah. And either you do reasoning or you're leaving the area, you know.

SPEAKER_01 1:42

Yeah, well, well, mostly it's it's reasoning area. You can't do it. It is nothing.

SPEAKER_03 1:47

Yeah, we have a tradition of 200 years reasoning growing in the area. It was the last the last prince bishop of Trier who brought out an a law, an edict, you know, like uh uh and I think it was let me 17 uh 1778. I think he brought out this edict uh that only reasoning should be planted. It was a where it was a it was a decision for these days towards uh producing more quality because the growers in these days have been suffering very much. Um and there was cheaper wines coming out from out of Germany, from France, and so uh the quality was very mediocre in these days. Uh it was all um field mix in these days, you know. It was no single rivals, you know. The single bridal idea started basically just 200 years ago, you know, all over Europe, you know. It was before that medieval time, until then it was all field mix, and field mix makes um not really high-end wines, you know, more more quantity than than quality.

SPEAKER_01 2:53

Um and Gemishedz in the Gemished.

SPEAKER_03 2:56

But Gemishtaz never brought out uh I mean really great wines, you know. I mean, plending that's something else, as they do in Bordeaux, you know, that's something else. But field mix, you don't have a control about how much you know every year might do a better wine as if you plant them, you know. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, and so from that point of view, uh Riesling they found out by by by sure, by experience, you know, that um single varietals like Riesling made much better wine, especially in these days the wines had been drank uh not young, you know. And Riesling with a higher acidity uh uh had a better aging potential because of the lower pH. You know, they could keep them much longer in the barrel as it used to be done in these days because they didn't have technology, you know. So they had to wait until the wine was clear, they had no findings, and so and so it was very important that then the wine, when you had waiting two, three, four, five years, even in an old winemaking book, which I found here in the library, you know, from 1817. I saw even 200 years ago, they kept reasoning from Ryan and Mosul 20 to 30 years in the barrel on their full yeast. Field mix couldn't do that. But reasoning with a low pH and a high acidity, they could stay let now. And I did it even. I tried it once when I found this book, 1981.

SPEAKER_01 4:19

I did not even we come back on that later because I have a program and then we will come back to your special QVs, and we will do that. Okay, but you you studied argeology.

SPEAKER_03 4:31

Yes, I studied, you know, that is also something which I always say. How you get into the wine business, how you inherit the wine estate, you know? You only have to study the wrong thing, you know. Because my brother, you know, my brothers had been um studying physics and engineering, law and business, as my wife, you know, and you know, and I was the only one who studied archaeology. And there's two options, I always say, as an archaeologist in Germany, you know, you can become a taxi driver or social welfare, but you never get a job, you know. So it was all my brothers and sisters, you better get into the wine business. You get better take over the winery. We're not going to support you.

SPEAKER_01 5:09

No, no. No, it's because uh your father went ill and somebody had had to take over the the because your mother. But the model said, Yeah, but you have to do it, otherwise we sell it.

SPEAKER_03 5:19

Yes, yes. Because but and then my my brothers and sisters have been pushing me into it and said, you know, you better do it, you know. We but they also said we don't want to have any shares because you know, in the old days, um uh because of Cote Napoleon, that was really in in France, it's still uh still there, uh it was all divided, you know. And we are four brothers, two sisters, you know. And so uh I mean that was impossible, you know, to divide it to two six, you know, yeah, and then to take it over, and it was had a long of l lot of deaths. And yes, and my father died, and basically he was very sick, not died. He was extremely extremely extremely sick. We all the doctor said he he will not do long anymore. And so my mother said, Look, you know, somebody has to take over the winery because we have been keeping it the whole time the all these years, it was not um it was deficit, you know, always they always balance out the deficits with private money. And she said, I can't do it on my own anymore. If nobody is going to take it over, then we're going to sell it. And then was my brother and sister said, Hey, you should do it, you should do it, you know. I mean, you never get a job. Yeah, yeah, of course.

SPEAKER_01 6:23

Yeah, you never get a job. Of course. Archaeology, yeah. Archaeology, yeah. But um the the the the the winery in those days was in a rather poor state.

SPEAKER_03 6:34

Yeah, it was a much smaller state, at least. But all very old wines, you know. Yeah, all, you know, so I mean it looked good, but it was in a poor stage because my father had uh he was a lawyer, he was uh MP, you know, and so he he was more in politics and other things, which he had been in interest, so he didn't care so much. It's not that he didn't make bad wine, but he wasn't a winemaker. He was a he had a PhD in law, you know, studied law and so uh he had a winemaker, he had a vineyard manager, he had had always people. But I mean the problem is if you have so many people employed, so they did a good job, you know. Yeah, but it was um yeah, but it produced a lot of deficits. So when I took over, it was highly in debt.

SPEAKER_01 7:18

Yeah, yeah, you told me as once. And uh but when you took over, you all all so strange your strategy, changed it. You want to do uh better wines because you met in your life once uh great wines, yeah. You made a world travel to meet great wines.

SPEAKER_03 7:36

Yeah, well, it was by the way, I met this English journalist Stuart Piggott, who is the specialist for German wines, you know. Uh oh, that was 1985. Yes, 85. I met this guy. He was not a journalist then yet, you know. He was already interested. Now he was also still at the University of Art in London. Um, but he was uh he had already had been traveling uh Germany and tasted with the uh with with all the estates, you know, interesting guy. And so I be we became very close friends, and he still until today has no driver's license. But with all the traveling, he wanted to visit all these estates, also not only in Germany, outside of France and so. He needed a driver and I always offered him, hey, I come and try I drive you to everybody. And so I had the great chance to get to all these great wine estates, you know, in Burgundy, in Elsa. I know the first visit that was I think 1989, uh visiting Olivier Humbrecht in Elsa. I learned a lot, and you know, and and these people have been great winemakers, you know, they have a clear view, you know, what they want to do, you know, with their winemaking and all these things, have clear views, clear ideas. And and if you listen carefully, I mean in these days I was super young, you know, just didn't, you know, just was a year in the business and so. And uh if you listen to these guys clear, there was always something, even if it was a red winemaker, where I thought, oh my god, this sounds super interesting. That is possibly that could be something also we could try. And that was I I remember what we what I learned from Olivier Humbresh in these days. He had been talking about full cluster grape pressing. I never heard about this beforehand, you know. And I said, Oh, that's interesting, full cluster pressing. That could be super interesting, especially in vintages like 2003, very, very warm vintage, low acidity, and sometimes we do, you know, uh maceration on the skin to get the acidity down, but not in vintages like 2003. And so I said, Oh, and this vintage, that might be the a great, I mean, a great idea to do it, you know, to keep the acidity. So what we then first time we tried it then with warm vintages, 2003, for example, and all these things, and that it was, I mean, I would say all these great winemakers, we we, I mean, I'm almost so remember for visiting the first time with Stuart, you know. All these great guys, you know. And so, and everywhere you thought, oh, this little thing, what they do here, that might be what's interesting for us, you know. And so, and then you you're adding this thing. Because, as I said, you know, you know, I I always said uh a great wine starts in your head, you know. You need a clear idea what you want to produce. You must have a clear idea what a great wine is. How you want to produce a great wine if you never had drink, if you never drink a great wine in your life, you know? And great wines all have the same kind of I mean, architecture, for my opinion. It doesn't matter if it's red or white, you know. I mean, it is this kind you want concentration or complexity, but at the same time, you want elegance, you know? All these kind of differences which you want to put into it. You don't want only a big, fat, rich wine. You want also elegance and finesse that it makes it um interesting and tension and so, you know, and all these things. And how do I receive it? It doesn't matter with with with which kind of wine, you know. How do I receive it? And that I mean, and then you get you create the idea of a great wine in your head, and then you work towards this, you know. I'm not the guy who said, Oh no, I mean, I do it uh natural, I leave it to God and to nature to do it, you know, and so fuck, you know, man, you won't. I mean, if you let God make wine, then you end up with vinegar, you know.

SPEAKER_00 11:12

So you took everything that you learned in every wine state that you visited, and then you it's a long period, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 11:18

Yeah, yeah, you juice things. Yeah, we tried it out, and so does it work with us? I mean, only that you think that could work out with us very well doesn't necessarily mean that it always worked out. But it is learning by doing, you know. My whole winemaking was learning by doing, you know, and it's still, I'm still, I mean, now 35 years in the business, uh, I'm still learning by doing, you know, doing winemaking by learning by doing. Because if you stop making wine, you know, because you got say 100 points and think, oh, I know now everything, you know, I don't have to improve anymore. Then then it goes down, you know? Yeah, because you ne, for my opinion, you never can do a hundred point wine, you know, because then there would be never room above it anymore. So so sure, I mean you try every year again to make a better wine, but the it is like an exponential curve, you know. The last 10%, the last five percent, the last three percent, the last one percent, that's the most exponential more work as the first 70%. And to get this, and and then a lot of people say, yeah, but makes it sense, you know, it's only one percent, and then you have to invest the same work as the first 70%. But if you never always look to to get this little bit, I mean, every year it gets every year more difficult.

SPEAKER_01 12:33

But that is with everything, athletes, yeah, football players, yeah, football players. Yeah, uh, why is Ronaldo a far better football player than uh what? And it's all the same.

SPEAKER_03 12:43

The last pieces are the most difficult the last few last percentages. Yeah, that is expensive. And that makes it a potential more, and that makes a difference.

SPEAKER_01 12:52

That makes a difference.

SPEAKER_03 12:52

And then you started in 88 with your first vintage, which was not an easy one because it was basically the 87 was the first vintage because I had been taking over because my father was already sick, and so in the 87 vintage, uh needed uh I mean I came in '88, I got it officially, but '87 with the harvest '87, I came to the so at 87. Bernie and me in had been the same at the first vintage, you know. Yeah, yeah. Bernie, my winemaker, you know.

SPEAKER_01 13:19

But the first vintages were uh we met the one of your best moments in your life when I'm you met me.

SPEAKER_03 13:27

Oh, yes, yes. I remember very well.

SPEAKER_01 13:31

How did you guys meet?

SPEAKER_03 13:32

I mean, he already had a very strong character then, already. He was never devote. But how did you guys meet? I just phoned him, yeah, because I was looking wine merchants, you know.

SPEAKER_01 13:45

I was looking for Dutch for German wine producers. Yeah, and I I knew from literature, I read about him. Okay, so in I don't know what the German literature, I think. About the family. And yeah, yeah, because I already worked with von Schubert. That was my first uh estate, uh German estate I worked with was von Schubert. Also great. I looked for more because I was really a Riesling fan. Always. I've always been a Riesling fan. And then I looked for good producers, and I came here because he just started up. He had no importer in the Netherlands, and then we met.

SPEAKER_03 14:19

I've been also not much known then, you know. I just thought that was the first reward I I win. I had been winning the German Riesling Prize with the 89 vintage, you know. Uh, but that was the first reward. So through this reward, I became a bit more known, you know. Before that, it was we had been not very much known, you know. So but I remember when he showed up and I said, Hey, how the heck, you know? I mean, I knew that, I mean, in these days, German reasonings or German wines in the Netherlands had been not appreciated at all. Because it was all this cheap super Planck, you know, the deep romage and all these kind of cheap stuff and cheap, cheap sweet wine. And then I said, And you wanna c on you want to import German wines? And even not the dry wines. He wanted to, uh he had been looking for the Kabinet, Spedlesser, Auslitzer, which I think are great wines, but in these days not appreciated at all. And I thought, this is a strange guy. Yeah, you want selling wine, which nobody wants.

SPEAKER_01 15:14

Yeah, yeah, yeah. But selling German wines in the Netherlands was very, very difficult because of course, because of the World World War II, because the people who bought the wines over then came all they were born just before the war. Yeah, and so they and they didn't want German wines. And of course, it looks a bit heels a little bit strange, but also from the football, because in 74 we lost the final. No, no, but you know, it was really a thing in the Netherlands. We lost the final in 1974 in Munich from Germany. 1974. Yeah, the world championship we lost in the final. You have no idea, you know. And he knows nothing from football, I can tell you. And and and that makes it very difficult to sell German wines in the Netherlands. So you were. But I I I I I I just keep pushing German wine.

SPEAKER_03 16:09

But they always have been swimming against the stream. Yeah. With other with our also other other other other great wine growing regions. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 16:19

Uh yeah, but but in the first finding new things, you know, finding new things. You know, well, and and my colleagues also, Nico McCuff said, Why don't you find something in the longer dock? It's far easier to find and it's far easier to sell. I said, Longer dog. But this is not what the fuck? What do we need? A Chardonnay from the Longer Dock. What is that? You know, so I wanted to Riesling, I was a Riesling fan. But also, in those days, I had uh for the Elsa's. I had I started in 1990 with the business. I had an Elsa's producer, and I was small in those days as a as an importer. Every year we did seven, eight, nine, ten pallets of Elsa's wines. But nowadays it's maybe 240 bottles in total every year because the Elsus is in decline, and they don't well have some discussion about that with other people, but but the German wines have really, really, really we now we sell a lot of German wines. Yeah, but in those days, the tastes were different, Annie. You know, in those days we we sold cabinets, spitles, ausles, ausleser gold capsules, and so on, more than dry wines. And that has to do with global warming. We will come to that because in the old days, in the 80s and in the 90s, German uh from the region here, the trokken, cabinet, cabinet trocken. Difficult. Oh, difficult. Acid, acid, acid, yes, yes, totally undrinkable.

SPEAKER_03 17:48

Yeah, that was not the that was definitely no no dry mainstream wines that was um you needed uh you needed with every class, you needed a mallox. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 17:58

But nowadays it's totally different because that also has to do with global warming.

SPEAKER_03 18:03

Absolutely, absolutely. Without the global warming, we wouldn't be able to do these wonderful dry wines nowadays, which are not great and not overripe, you know, as with other regions more south in Europe where we're getting more and more overripe, more higher alcohol. Yeah, that but but you know, it I I I must say he was, I mean, absolutely in these days a pioneer, you know, for these German fruity-style reasoning, Kabinetschbeiser Ausleser, which um I always thought in these days it was also people have been drinking more dry wines in the Netherlands, you know, and to to come to come with these fruity wines into the country, you know, which anyway was challenging, you know, for for our wines. And then with the fruity wines, that was really pioneer work. But that is to be frank, we need these people like him, you know, who promoting it promoting reasoning uh uh from Germany with with from their heart, you know, and from their passion, you know, to convince other people, you know. Otherwise we don't break through. It is still, we have still, I mean, it's much better as in the old days, but still, I mean it's challenging. It's diff still more easy to to sell a great uh white burgundy, you know, um, which is an affordable price as a Riesling, you know.

SPEAKER_01 19:15

Yeah, but I think price quality in Riesling is far, far better than you you and I are burgundy lovers, also red and white. Absolutely. But for uh one bottle of good white burgundy, you have a you have a six-bottle case of good, very good Riesling.

SPEAKER_03 19:31

Yeah, concrete Rieslings, yeah, sure, that's it, you know. But yeah, but we uh we we had been doing with the help like people like him, you know, uh we did a uh we we we we we succeeded at least in the last 30 years now to get rid of the image of cheap super plonk wines. Uh I think it is recognized that Germany with their top reasonings belong now again to the to the you know to the to the great producers in the world. And it is not only the reasoning, even that we gain now a kind of a uh a reputation for Pinot Noir in Germany. And the Pinot, yeah, but Pinot varieties like Pinot Gris and Pinot Blanc, you know. And the funny thing is, so many people don't know. I mean, that we are the largest Riesling producer. It's the the reasoning is the German grape variety, you know. 50% of the world production uh of 50,000 hectares is in Germany. So we produce 50% of the world production of Riesling. The next larger uh Riesling producer is the US with 10% of the reasoning production worldwide, then it is the third one is uh Australia with um something like 8%, around 8%, and the fourth largest producer is then Alsace with seven point something, you know. Um so that means uh Germany is by far the largest. But the people don't know that Germany is the largest Pinot Planck producer in the world, and the second largest Pinot Gris producer in the world.

SPEAKER_01 20:55

And until five years, and a third one noir.

SPEAKER_03 20:59

Yeah, but five years ago we had been the second largest Pinot Noir producer in the world. Only due to this stupid movie, you know, sideways uh how 20 years ago, 2004 by the way, um, you know, that that that that that that produced a hype for Pinot Noir in the US. I mean, basically unbelievable how can such a B movie, you know, um influence the marketing for such a hype. And since 20 years, and that is the only grape variety which I still since 20 years still is growing in the US. They still plant more and more Pinot Noir, I think, but they this year they they get the peak because it it's a bit too much, you know. And so from that point of view, I think it was five years ago that the US took over uh Germany as the second largest Pinot Noir producer in the world, but it's still the third largest Pinot producer. So we are big in Pinot. We would think Riesling is the big thing, you know, but it's Pinot Writers are also big in in Germany.

SPEAKER_01 21:56

Eleven percent of the German production is Pinot Noir.

SPEAKER_03 21:59

Yeah, it's Yeah, yeah, that's yeah, Spätburguna. Yeah, exactly. So from that point of view, and that have been going also much. I mean, they the a huge improvement in the last twenty-five years. Uh um if it comes to uh Spätburgunner or Pinon Noir, you know, I mean uh in the sixties and seventies, oh my god, this this these wines have been really untrinkable.

SPEAKER_01 22:18

But we we come back because we have two podcasts. This one we do about your uh my good Dr. Lawson estate, and our the next podcast will be about this kind of uh things. Yeah. So uh but in the 90s you your your your reputation was more growing, growing, growing, and then in in uh uh in night in 2005, I was really proud of you.

SPEAKER_03 22:44

What happened?

SPEAKER_01 22:47

Man of the year, yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 22:48

They can't have man of the year.

SPEAKER_01 22:49

They count the man of the year, and that is not nothing because big names, yeah. Angelo Gaia, Robert Mondavi, and then who comes up? Chateau Latura and Mago, all these first growth and who's coming up, Ernie Lawson.

SPEAKER_03 23:04

And still, we are still the only German estate now since uh yeah, since 87 was the first uh decanter man of the year. That was uh Charles Hocher, you know, from uh Lebanon. In Lebanon, yeah. Uh um, and and then uh until now, you know, it is only uh we are the only German estate so far where was named uh the Canterman of the Year.

SPEAKER_01 23:27

De Canterman of the Year.

SPEAKER_03 23:29

Yeah, that was a that was definitely um an that was your international breakthrough, I think. Yeah, yeah, it was an international breakthrough, you know, and so that means and the English press, you know, is uh still due to the Commonwealth, you know, and the old imperial um is still read everywhere in the world, you know. More the the American press is read in in America, like wine spectator, and so it has not such a great influence outside of America, but the English wine press has a huge impact um to the rest of the world, you know, where they read this, you know, and that helped me also to extend our export uh where we are now to nearly 100 countries in the world, you know, and a lot of these countries uh uh which had been previous um uh colonies of England, you know, Commonwealth nowadays, um they um they often phone me because they read these articles and said, Oh god, we don't have a German wine, but I think we need a German one. One is enough, you know. That's true. And so and then they they phone me because they they read about me all over the world, you know.

SPEAKER_01 24:35

But you were traveling the world like hell, yeah. Yeah, so wow.

SPEAKER_03 24:38

I mean, true to these things too, you know. Yeah, you know, from I find a new importer, I've been immediately sucking going in, you know, there because I think it's important if you have a new importer that you support him immediately, you know, yeah, um, doing tastings and all these kind of things. Yeah, and that basically ended up in a lot of traveling. I mean, uh, before COVID, I did 500,000 air miles a year.

SPEAKER_01 24:58

Wow. Yeah, I know. You were always underway, always on always in the plane, always doing so.

SPEAKER_03 25:05

But it's important, you know. I mean, if you are not that known of a wine-producing area or country, you know, then you have to go out and show them, you know. You can't expect that they all come to you.

SPEAKER_01 25:15

But you but it was not only your estate, you did also because when I talked to Helmut Dernhoff or von Schubert oder Wilhelm Haag or what, they all said we are uh Annie is an ambassador for German Riesling, not only from uh uh Dr.

SPEAKER_03 25:31

Lawson, but German Lease Riesling Because you have to to promote the whole country, you know, because that is something what the people, you know, for them it's Germany. They don't know about uh 13 regions in Germany, you know. Uh they they as we talk about American wines, you know. A lot of people who talk about American wines don't know that there's uh they but they they mean mostly uh California, but there's more American wines, you know. But in the beginning, you have to talk about the country, you know, reasoning from Germany, boom, you know. The rest they have to uh find out themselves.

SPEAKER_01 26:01

Yeah. Do your homework. No, no, but uh but uh then um um how about um now you have they say a little bit a cabinet revival because in the old days, in the old days, hey, like we are all we all dunky So what you said I started up with cabinet, spade laser, als laser, gold caps, and so on, and then it went drier. Yeah, what they call in Germany trockene welle. Yeah, yeah, and that started in Germany, but the quality of the dry wines went better and better in Germany with not only Riesling but also the Burgundes. Now, you know, for instance, to give you an example, um Oliver Haag told me uh that in the old days they made 90% fine hair and semi-sweet and sweets and 10% dry. And now it's all the way around. They only make only 10% sweet wines.

SPEAKER_03 27:05

Yeah, that's true. Um, but uh depends a little bit on the markets you serve, you know. Uh that's true. We I mean my father didn't do barely no dry wines, you know. I started then a little bit, you know, the 89, 90, 91. I started then try Cabinet, Tri-Speed as a 88 Try Auslaser because we didn't have the GG system then yet. And um and so, but that was pretty pretty small. It was only the German market who demanded these wines, you know, because Germans, uh you can say, in the since the middle of the 80s, uh they refused more and more to drink these fruity-style wine. It had been going dry, dry, dry, dry. If there was not dry on the label, no, no, that's is a sweet wine. Because the whole press in these days had been promoting only dry wines and said that's the real wines. French wines, Spanish wines, Italian wines are all dry. Only we Germans make uh sweet wines. This is not the real, you know, and so it should be dry. And that, I mean, the press had in these days a huge impact to it, you know. But um, yeah, that's true. And then then global warming helped, you know. So I would say in the Mosul since the late 90s, early 2000s, we made much better dry wines because the average ripeness had been higher. And we don't talk about overripeness as we know it now from the south of Europe, you know. So we suddenly had wines uh with 10 potential alcohol or 11 potential alcohol sugar ripeness, you know. That was already the maximum. But that made already, with a long hang time, much better dry wines as we had it in the 80s, you know, where the wines had been much sour, much more you can say sour to high acidity. The acidity was more moderate, you know. And so it it was a big improvement. And then certain regions in Germany stopped to make any fruity wines. Rheinhessen, Pfalz, Baden, you know, big regions, you know. They had been only doing dry wines. I mean, um, here even worse, certain regions like Fals and Baden said, no, I mean, sweet wines that shouldn't be. There was this the father of Fritz Keller, you know. God, he had been always talking about against, even in TV, against the fruity-style wines, no. But here in the Mosul, still as the most northern coring region, we still had, I mean, the potential for this beautiful, fruity, light and low alcohol cabinets, you know, and Spadlis, you know, which in the south, because due to global warming, they couldn't do it anymore, you know. And so from that point of view, the jer, I mean, here the Mosul region, I would say also parts of Naher, you know, and Mittelrhine, you know, um, they they had been the most northern growing regions. They still had been hanging in and said, no, we want to keep this, you know. Even the VDP in the beginning said, no, this they they they they created this kind of cron crew system, but only for the dry wines. Which is what is, I mean, for that makes no sense to me. Either a wineyard is cron crew rated, it doesn't matter if you do make a dry wine or a fruity style wine out of it, but you can't go and classify only a wineyard as cron cru, but only if the wine is made in the dry style, you know, but if it is not made in the dry style, but nobody cared because the whole rest of the of Germany, of the wine-coring regions, which are all in the south, said, Well, we don't care because we don't produce it, so we make a classification only for the dry wines, you know. And that is that was a huge handicap for the Mosul in the beginning. A huge handicap for the Mosul. But now, you're right, we see a little bit of a renaissance of cabinet because the whole trend, you know, we want lighter wines, especially that you see now wines in the world which has 15.5 alcohol, white wines, you know. Yeah. I mean, this is not refreshing. With 10% residual sugar in it, also no acidity, you know. So, I mean, the tendency to to light and refreshing, you know. Uh we can do it naturally, naturally. We don't have to de-alkolize it, you know. And so we are the we I just came from Finland, you know, quite interesting because in Finland they allowed now ever all wines up to 8% can be because they have a monopole system, but everything up to 8% in the wine is allowed to uh be sold freely, also in supermarkets or independently, doesn't have to go through the um through the monopole market, you know. And I have been looking into the shelf, you know. Oh my god, a lot of these because you know that is you know, they don't have to go through the through the monopoly. All these wines with 8%, all de-alcoholized, you know, or watered down. So they don't say even wine on it because you can't call it wine. The only natural, real, natural, 100% natural wines with 8% was our wine. Yeah Dr. L, fruity, 8%. Yeah, yeah, with 8% on the labels, you know. And all the others had been artificially made by de-alcoholization, and so you know. You see, we can still do it here. We are the only area which still can do 100% reasoning made as wine, real wine with 8% alcohol or 7.5 alcohol, you know, cabinets with 7.5 alcohol. It's not a rarity. And then how does this age?

SPEAKER_01 32:09

Oh, they age too. Yeah, I like, for instance, every year, it's from your colleague uh Oliver Haag, I have a carton of six, and I do the the Brauneberger juffer, fine hair. I put it away in my cellar, and uh and I drink it when it's between seven and ten years old, more or less. Now I start up 2017, for instance. It is delicious to drink. You have low alcohol, 10% 10% alcohol, and it's it develops like hell in 2017. White burgundy is 2017 now.

SPEAKER_03 32:44

Well, well we're releasing this year a 2012 Wil Nazon Uh Cabinet releasing it. It's not released yet. We're releasing it that was two years in the barrel uh on the full yeast, and it is 7.5 or 8% alcohol. And the wine tastes, you know, if you taste it now, you know, was two years in the barrel, another 10 years in the bottle before release. The wine tastes fresh as a daisy as it was bottled yesterday.

SPEAKER_01 33:10

Talking about wine, the the glasses are empty, and it's 11.30. Very dry potato Sunday morning, 11:30. So uh it's not night time for a glass of wine. Yeah, uh Riesling breakfast.

SPEAKER_03 33:24

What we call in Germany um um um yeah, früh shoppen. Now we need a corkscrew. I think it could be that there's one over there. Oh, it's on the on the desk, uh on the on the on the secretary. There should be a or or on the on the table. You will take a look. It's this is uh I don't know how what is it that there's always a problem in wineries to find a corkscrew.

SPEAKER_01 33:49

You're searching for you should hey you put a screw a screw cab on it. Yeah, but this is a just why do you why do you need a cork?

SPEAKER_03 33:57

Uh I'm not I mean I'm not against any closure or pro closure. I think they should be um um you know, it should be chew to the wine, you know. And there are certain wines which do better under cork, and there are certain wines we do better under school cap, and we decide only chew to the wine. What closure is better? Which wine needs still some development, you know, uh, which are very reductive, then the closure with uh I mean uh screw cap. If you have a very directive reductive wine and you put a uh screw cap on it, you know, then it can go even more reductive, you know. So in these wines I rather go under core, that they get a little bit air through the development of the next years, so that this is going away, you know. But um so from that point of view, I I I'm not convinced that screw cap is for each wine the optimum, you know, closure, you know. Okay. So we we decide. Um so do you already have a crow cup, mate? We can pass it up.

SPEAKER_02 34:58

You can go uh can you go to the kitchen? Uh to the you know, you know the kitchen down there? Um the estates.

SPEAKER_03 35:09

Okay, let's go. I think uh let's go to another one that we'll taste.

SPEAKER_01 35:12

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, there's all already one open. Yeah, there are also some. Oh, we have it.

SPEAKER_03 35:17

We have it. Uh we have it. Oh, very good. Thank you. You see, this is uh you see what kind of problems we are faced nowadays in the wine business.

SPEAKER_01 35:26

But then uh then you became more and more famous, but uh then um you started up the property where it was 10 hectares, and every year you bought extra wine yards because you told me the Mosul is shrinking, yes, so you have to buy uh wine yards.

SPEAKER_03 35:46

So, well, I mean you have to see it that way. In uh in the early 80s, in 1980, early 80s, the Mosul was still 13,000 hectares size, you know, or a little bit higher. Um, and now we are 8,000 hectares. So we have been in the last 40 years, you can say, 45 years, we have been we lost 5,000 hectares. Because a lot of people, and you know, and at the most we it was mostly the steep slopes and the traditional slopes, you know, even top vineyards, you know, yeah, um hot vineyards, you know, and hard to work, nobody wanted to take over. The wineries had been very small. To be frank, uh people couldn't really recommend it to their kids, you know, to continue because it was only 1.5 hectare or two hectare, you couldn't make a living out of it. So, from that point of view, I totally understand this, you know. So there was always a great chance, you know, to buy some vineyards, great vineyards, really great top con cruise. And a little bit the situation as it was in the 60s in Alsace, what what what old man Humbrecht, you know, uh told us, you know, that was the same. The people have been going to the flatland, you know, it's easier to work, you can machinize it, and nobody wants to have the steep, traditional old, steep uh vineyards in in Alsace. And so that was also the reason in the 60s that you know Oliver's father had been able to buy more and more of these old historic Quancrew vineyards in which nobody wanted anymore. And it was a little bit similar here. So every year you could buy great vineyards with great reputation, old vines, you know, even uh original root stocks for quite cheap, you know, quite cheap. And I took the opportunity to buy if I got to be able to do it. 10 euros per square meter for an Grand Krieger. Yeah, it was before before Euro times, it was 10 10 10 Deutsch mark or 12 Deutschmark, you know, or 15 Deutsch mark, you know.

SPEAKER_01 37:36

That's 100,000 euros for uh hectare that's planted with old wines. Yeah, and this is very good.

SPEAKER_03 37:43

Even even less, but it was still a Deutschmark, it was only 50,000 or 60,000 or 70,000. You have a vision, so that's why you bought it. I I yeah, but you know, you I I was still from the generation where my father always had been dreaming to get certain vineyards, you know. Um okay, that was the good old days, you know, where he said, Oh my god, this is a vineyard which we would love to have, and this and so. And suddenly these vineyards had been, you know, available, you know, and you could buy it. And so I have been always, if I saw an opportunity, I always and it worked, I mean, had been fitting into our portfolio, you know. Um, yeah, I I tried to buy it, you know, and uh it was a lot of opportunities in the last 25 years to buy, you know. Whole whole estates had been sold. I wasn't able to afford this, you know, because still we had been when I took over, it took me 10-15 years to make break even, you know, and to pay off all the uh debt. So we had been only you know selectively could been able, you know, um to buy and you know and to get a credit or whatever. Nowadays it's easier. But yeah, but I mean from 88 to now, from 10 hectares, we are now up to 80 hectares, you know. 80 hectares. 80 80.

SPEAKER_01 38:52

From 10 to 80.

SPEAKER_03 38:53

Yeah, that's a big difference. Yes. But on the other hand, we see now that the limited factor is not the demand. We are still doing uh well in selling, you know. But the limiting factor is nowadays um the work. We don't get labor.

SPEAKER_00 39:14

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 39:14

Because the the steep slopes are still uh the biggest problem to to I mean you have to work them, it's a lot of labor costs involved with the steep slopes. So if you you know, we have this winery in the files and where it's you can machinize everything, tractors and so. I mean, even if you do hand harvest there, but with all the machinization, we're talking about four or five hundred work hours per hectare. You know, but here in the Mosul with the steep slopes, the steepest slopes, you know, which are still on the old traditional single pole um, you know, uh training system. We have we talk about two and a half to three thousand man hours per hectare, the six times as much, you know. And that means, but you don't see really that we get six times as more price as to the files, you know, or Ryan hasn't to the top just the opposite. We get less. The the the top GGs, you know, yeah are more expensive in files and Ryan Hassan as here in the Mosul, even that we have two to five times more labor costs with the wineyards. And again, even that we would love it to do more, we are not able to do it anymore because we uh we are absolutely at our limit because of the labor costs. Yeah, not only the labor costs, to get labor at all. Yeah, it is nearly impossible to get labor who want to work still in the vineyards, you know.

SPEAKER_01 40:36

And what what where comes labor come from nowadays?

SPEAKER_03 40:39

Yeah, it is all from foreign foreign EU countries. You know, in the old days it was a lot of labor came from Poland, you know. Romania. Uh now it's more Romania, you know. Sadly, Germany still don't allow like Spain or Italy any labor outside of the EU because you know, Spain and Italy or Hungary or whatever, you know, they have a lot of labor from from Easter, I mean these countries uh from North of African countries. From Africa. Yeah, uh mostly North Africa. Yeah, I saw in Italy. I was in Italy. Even people from I I I've heard even from now from some of you that they take them from from from Asia, you know, Thailand and Myanmar, they give them work permission just for the three months or four months they need it, you know. But sadly, Germany is absolutely against it. And so maybe actually you have lots of refugees here.

SPEAKER_01 41:29

Uh huh. So you could do also but that's the same problem in the Netherlands where you are with our asparagus. You know, it's the same with the same story. It starts now more more or less eight. The vegetable producers have to cover the problem. Yeah, you need lots of lots of labor. And we have labor uh by refugees, and they don't they don't allow it. It's absolutely ridiculous.

SPEAKER_03 41:53

Uh so I mean we will I mean even if they allow it, we don't know if they want to do it, you know. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So that means that there's a difference between allowing it and then even find people who want to do it, you know, even that it is allowed. But I mean, this is a this is a problem, you know. We have to uh we yeah, I don't know, there's a lot of tendency sure to do more machinization also in the steep slope, but machinization in the steep slope is so much more expensive, it's a very specialized, you know. I mean, for a lot of companies, it's not worse, you know, to develop for such a small market special machines. And if they're doing it, these special machines are two to three times more expensive as uh the ones which you use in the flat, you know, where you can have a much higher production of these machines. So it is a very, very challenging thing for the steep slopes. That's the reason the wines, as you said, I mean, they're still very, very good value, you know, for money, you know. But uh that that becomes more and more difficult. We need uh definitely some higher prices, but I mean, but the market decides this, not me, you know. We have something in the glass, as yes, we have now in the glass uh a vineyard, a very famous vineyard, which is called Velener Zonnenuhr. Velen is the village, Zonnenuhr is the name of the vineyard, Zonnenur means Sundial vineyard, you know. Um Riesling alte Reben, Alte Reben means old vines, you know, via vineyard as the French call it, um 2023. Um is a Gigi. Gigi is the logo. If you see Gigi as a logo, we have it here on the bottle, and we also on the back label um means great growth or in German grosses gewachs, you know, which is an indication that this uh wine, this wine comes from a Kronku vineyard. Vienna Zenua Gigi always tells you the name of the vineyard which is here on the label, is a Kronku rated vineyard, you know, so that makes it a little bit easier, especially um if you're selling internationally like me in China or wherever, Thailand, they can't read it, you know. But for them, it's very helpful if I tell them. If you see this logo, logo and you don't understand the name of the vineyard down there, but it always tells you it's a con.

SPEAKER_01 44:07

But it's only when you're a Vau DP member. Only when you're not a VAUDP member, you can't use GG.

SPEAKER_03 44:13

No, that's not true because GG or what's what's barely the trademark where they could get only for GG with this little grape wine. If you use it without grape wine, everybody can use it. Oh yeah. No. And didn't know. So because they never had been able to trademark only GG, the two to letters GG. So that's the reason that they made the GG with the grapevine. This this logo is trademarked. But that's the reason, you know, with a VDP with the with the Willa Wolf Estate in the files, I'm not a member, you know. But we have GG wineyards like Peschstein, you know? Yeah. And so we put then GG on it, you know, but only GG without the grapevine. And this is allowed because it was never I don't know really why they have been not able to, I think they forgot it or have been too late or whatever. I don't know. You barely see it. Oh no, no, a lot of people who are not in the VDP uh serious serious wine producers do GGs.

SPEAKER_01 45:12

I never buy from autoproducers. I only do I only do buying from the real ones.

SPEAKER_03 45:18

Only the real stuff. But I mean, but it doesn't matter if it is only um for me, if it is serious and that the people I use it even GG for my my my wines my reasoning, which I produce in in America, you know, uh the GG, you know. And so but it is a great it's a great success story. I mean the VDP started something uh in these days 20 years, 21 years ago, I think, you know, um, which became a real success story. It gave some suddenly the people with all these vineyard names. We have so many, far too many vineyard names here, which is a totally, I mean, I mean, you get totally lost, you know. And so with this logo, they had been, you know, uh concentrating on the top vineyards, which had been always there. Traditionally, we have an old vineyard classification map here from 1868, where these vineyards already had been um classified, you know. So, but it had been getting lost because we never turned like Burgundy, this old vineyard classification map, into a law, you know. And so it was there, but um got forgotten, you know. And the and the VDP 20 years ago emphasized again these Cronku vineyards with a logo, and in Burgundy you can put Cornku on the label, then you know this is a Kronku, but we can't do this. But with this logo GG, they emphasized uh this vineyard is a Cornkui vineyard belongs to the Great Heritage of Germany, uh, where these vineyards already since 200 years have been classified, but we have to emphasize it again, and it's a success story. So if other people who are strict keeping in the laws of the VDP also use the GG, I have no problem with that, you know, because it is for everybody good, you know, and it is especially for the market, it's good, you know, that the people say, Oh, these are the top vineyards, here we can produce great wines. A cron crew vineyard is never a guarantee that you have a great wine in the in the in the bottle. That's like like in Burgundy. That's also not in Burgundy, but it gives you an indication, you know, that this is a great vineyard, and you have a chance to make a great wine here. Uh at the end, the pro the consumer decides it, you know. Um, you never as a producer, and so and and you see it usually on the price. If you have a GG which is very expensive, then you can pretty much say, here the consumer decided this is really a great GG, great Grand Cru, and that's a unwilling to pay a higher price. And but that's the same in Burgundy. You find, I mean, not nowadays anymore, but I know 20-30 years ago you found cheap musinis and very expensive musinis, you know, because that was the quality which divided them, you know. Um, so from that point of view, it's a great idea. Um, we only have to be um a little bit more careful. Uh, that's my little criticism on the VDP. They overregulate it, you know. I mean, you should be, I mean, you can't regulate everything. At the end, the consumer decides it, you know. Um, so but in prices, you can't regulate prices by by an organization. The consumer decides if he's willing to pay a high price or a lower price because he decides if this is a great wine or not.

SPEAKER_01 48:30

You're just told that prices here in on the Mosul Valley are much lower for the Grand Cruise, for the GG's, than for instance Rheinhessen. We you know Klaus Peter Keller and so on, hundreds and hundreds of euros. Gmax, 1500 euros or something. How does it come that the prices here on the Mosul are lower than the prices in, for instance, Rheinhessen?

SPEAKER_03 48:56

I think it is, as I said, much easier if like the south, southern Krowing wine regions which decided to promote only their dry wines, you know. So they do only the dry wines. But we we in the Mosul had been still this uh I mean um um ambivalent um um uh for dry and sweet wines. We we think that we can make great dry wines, but we still believe in our wonderful fruity-style Cabinet Bad is a Ausless, you know, and so we again have, and I think that was also the problem in the old days with with Germany. You had this kind of you know white, you know, I mean, um selection of different style wines, dry wine, cabinet suite, cabinet bear is a aus there's a noble suite, bear and also noble suite. There's always no focus, you know, if you try to promote six or seven categories at the same time, you know. And I think we suffer under that. And Ryan has enough funds that did a much, I must say, much better marketing in the last 25 years. They only promoted dry wines, and that's the reason they said we don't make any fruity-style wines anymore. Therefore, let's do GG, you know, that is fantastic. You know, it's easier to promote it. It's much easier to promote. And we we we we promote both, you know, we promote the dry wines, we promote the sweet wines, and that is immediately we're coming to the point then that had that consumer have to decide, oh hell, what do I have to do now? You know, what is a dry or fruity? Uh you know, they give in rhinestone of health, they give only one option, you know? Yeah, and then you decide it, you know. Do you decide for this one option, you know? Here they have suddenly, and you know, and consumer, if you give them too many options to decide, then they get a little bit lost, you know. And so, you know, and that makes it possibly that is possibly one of the reasons. I can't I can't explain it. I mean, but I think that is one of the reasons.

SPEAKER_01 50:47

Yeah. I think it also we got to be.

SPEAKER_03 50:49

Because it is still the stigma, oh, these guys still producing sweet wines, you know. And then they say, Oh, oh, the Mosul produce only sweet wines.

SPEAKER_01 50:56

Klaus Peter Keller makes very expensive wines. But his sweet wines, I saw an Auschleser, half bottle, 35 euros.

SPEAKER_03 51:05

So they actually it's for him no use to do that because Yeah, they they exactly they don't produce, uh they they don't uh um emphasize or don't uh promote the sweet wines, you know. The sweet wine is then it looks like an um side product of the dry wine production, no?

SPEAKER_01 51:22

But actually it's a little bit I don't know. I'm a big lover of sweet wines. When I started in the 90s with your wines and with uh from von Schubert and Haag and so on, every year I put cases full away in my private cellar with sweet wines. I have lots of Auslayers, Ausleiser Gold Cup. I like Ausleser Gold Caps because for me, Beren Auslayers and TBAs are a little bit too much, but an Ausleser Gold Cup is very affordable, and they you can stock it up like hell. Last night we were in Zeltingerhof, we had a 71, for instance. A 71. It's more than 50 years old, yeah, and the wine is was in a perfect condition, yeah, you know, and in my private cellars, I have I think I have a few hundred bottles and magnums of uh sweet stuff and half bottles, and I'm very happy with it. Especially my son Mace, he's addicted to it, Mace, sweet stuff, yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 52:18

But but that is basically but this is also the problem, you know. If you see these high prices, you know, for top dry wines, you know. Um the predicate system, which we still hang in here in the Mosul because we believe in Cabinet Speler, Bahrenhausen Trockenhouse, yeah, prevent high prices. Because if you have a predicate system, which is like a ladder, cabinet is the first step, speler is the second step, uh third step, beeren house is a fifth step, a fourth step, and the fifth step. So Trockenbearner Auslaser is always was always the pinnacle. So that means by logic, a cabinet never can be 500 euros if the trockenburn auslaser, which is the pinnacle 500 euros, you know? So the cabinet will stay always. I mean, even the funny thing, why can cabinet never be 100 points if it is in his category a great wine and never get a hundred points with cabinet? You get only hundred points with Auslaser, Ausleiser Gold Cups or Bayern Auslaser or Trockenburn Auslaser, no? So that is the that is that that that predicate system prevents us, you know, to you can make the greatest cabinet in the world, you know, but it will never be an expensive wine, you know, because uh because you have the spade laser above it, you know. If if cabinet is already 100 points, what can be the spade laser then? That and that is the problem with the rating system. They don't see each category on its own. This is a 100-point cabinet, and this is a 100-point spade laser, and this is a 100-point auslaser. But therefore, that they also say, yeah, but cabinet is the lowest predicard, so it can't be 100 points, you know. And that prevents us from high prices. But if you do only one dry wine, you know, then there's no competition, you know. And that is the problem. The predicard makes the predicate system is a competition, competition in its own, you know. And that that that's the reason that cabinet will be always um kind of um very, very affordable wines, you know. And so from that point of view, that's but but we still believe in it because it's great.

SPEAKER_01 54:17

Um, I believe also in it because um I like I like I like cheap wines, as you know. But we're we have now the Villanazon. Yeah, well GG Nazonre is one for me one of the most beautiful wine yards here in the area. Absolutely gorgeous when you drive from from Berencastle to Zeltingen. Uh you go along it and you it's gorgeous to see.

SPEAKER_03 54:41

It's famous for its blue slate soil. You know, we have the Devonnian blue slate here in in the Mosul. But Vilna Sonwa always had the reputation to be the model, the the the the the masterpiece, you know, shows the most typical blue slate uh Riesling, you know, in the middle Mosul, you know, because it's always blue slate, pure blue slate, very drained soil, only one meter of topsoil, and this is 60% stones, and then the pure cliffs, the pure cliffs, blue slate cliff starts, the roots can find their way very, very deep into the cliffs, you know. And it is always said it is the most elegant and most aromatic wine, you know, for blue slate. And you see if you smell it, you know, beautiful, aromatic, you know, and the and the lots of delicacy, delicate. Uh this white peach, which is very typical for being with very lots of flour, saltiness of very well, we call it mineral.

SPEAKER_01 55:40

We we are not uh not obliged to anyone to say mineral, but I still call it mineral.

SPEAKER_03 55:45

Yeah, well, for 20 years ago everything was mineral, you know. Now nobody wants to use the mineral word anymore. Now everything is salty. No, oh yeah. I wonder myself what the next word is in 10 years' description.

SPEAKER_01 55:56

But in 10 years' time, we're still drinking this because you know this can stock up very good. Yeah, you can. Oh yeah. I had them for 15 years old already. Yeah, yeah. LS very nice.

SPEAKER_03 56:07

Beautiful now, 12 is beautiful now. It's absolutely gorgeous.

SPEAKER_01 56:10

Yeah, yeah. And you know, Annie, for 30 euros a bottle, are we talking about 30 euros? Retail, yeah. Consumer price. Consumer price. And this is a very good thing.

SPEAKER_03 56:19

This is from old uncrafted wines, original root stocks, you know. And so that makes it quite a difference, you know. And the winemaking is very, very historic, you know, like my great-grandfather made it. And so it is all on Digen C's fermented in barrels, you know, 1000, 2000, or 3000 liter size, and Digen C is fermented, and if it is dry, so as long as soon it is dry, we sulphur, top it up, and then let the yeast settle down and let it sit on the full yeast for minimum 12 months. No batonage, that means steering, topping up, topping up, topping up, and then after 12 months we we take it off the full yeast, you know, and bottle it. I think this kind of one year, at least one year in the barrel gives a great stabilization to the wine, you know, and ageability too, you know. Yeah. The little bit of microoxidation which goes together with this little, I mean, where the wine sits on the yeast, where you have a little of a dissolvement of the yeast into the wine, the microoxidation uh integrates all these things into the complexity of the wine, makes the acidity a little more rounder, you know, and more, you know, you know, more more agreeable for drinking, you know. It is not as you know as as dominant anymore. Approachable, yeah. Much more approachable. Much more approachable.

SPEAKER_01 57:35

But this has um this the a little bit the the style of the wine. Uh say uh this is dry.

SPEAKER_03 57:42

Yeah. It's dry, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 57:43

Yeah. So but it means it's G means to be well dry. Yeah, yeah, it's always dry, but dry and you have dry and dry because this Yvonne has around seven acid, I think.

SPEAKER_03 57:53

And seven gram residues.

SPEAKER_01 57:55

And then you have and then you don't take seven grams residual.

SPEAKER_03 57:58

So we try to do it one to one, you know, acidity and residual sweetness. I mean, more or less. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so, you know, but German German dry means up to you're allowed to have up to nine gram residual sweetness per liter, you know. Uh so this is the German system. Uh but a lot of wines, I mean, stop would stop naturally higher. So we either have to, it is rather our problem with natural yeast. They are very low, I mean, very slow fermenter and very lazy fermenters, natural yeast here in our area, you know. So we always have to push them to get it less than nine, you know. So we really have to um um look after the the w the wines during the fermentation, and Bernie, my winemaker, is uh measuring the the the the the fermentation in the morning and in the evening to see that it is going you know consistently. But as soon as the wine is starting to slow down and we see oh it will not reach the dryness, then we have to to enhance the the the fermentation a bit by warming up the the wine, you know, because the the fermentation is in our cellars at 15 degrees, 16 degrees, it's very cold, you know. So warm it up that these bastards going down less than we wouldn't do anything, they would stop with 12-13 and then there would be no. You don't add yeast. No, no, it's natural yeast, you know? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because they're also tanning fermentation.

SPEAKER_01 59:20

There are also growers who start up with natural reese, but sometimes you have to push a little bit and then they put a little bit more.

SPEAKER_03 59:27

But we push it only by by warming up, you know, yeah, yeah. Warming up, you know, because then they feel more comfortable the yeast, you know, if it is a little bit warmer, and then they they just take the the last, you know, um bit of uh to get less than nine, you know. As soon as it is less than nine, then we we we we don't do anything anymore, then it cools down and uh then it stops somewhere bit naturally between seven and eight or whatever.

SPEAKER_01 59:53

Yeah, yeah. But uh Helmudnoff, for instance, he add added yeast.

SPEAKER_03 59:57

So everybody has their own receptors. Yeah, yeah, everybody has his own reception. We want to do 100% natural, you know. Uh we believe in it, uh, but that makes it a little bit more difficult to get them dry, you know, uh with uh with add uh added yeast, you know, because these are more powerful yeasts, no, there you have less problems, no. They go through and you know, and here you have to stop the fermentation if you want to keep it.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:20

And you do that with all the wine starting up already with uh with uh the the the cubiatrocken or cu from you. You always you only use natural yeast. Yes.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:31

Also for the smaller wines, not only for also for the estate wrestling, you know, estate wrestling, blue sleigh dry, uh and red slate dry, yeah, also for the village, Kraka Village, and all of the congrues, yeah. Oh okay, okay, good.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:46

It's a very nice bottle. Night length. I like all Wilner Zone is a but Vilnerzone is also a pleaser. I always call it a little bit a pleaser. How how old are the rootstocks? Are over a hundred years old?

SPEAKER_03 1:00:59

Yeah, yeah. This one is a vineyard which is yeah 100 years, something like that, you know. And so, no, I mean we I mean uh it is planted before because you know, in the EU uh registration, land registration form, it's all planted before uh in there, planted before 1945, you know? Yeah, yeah. And so now from that point of view, that is that means it's uh 45, 55 plus 25. We're talking already about uh 80 years plus, you know.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:31

Yeah. But that is the the advantage from a neglected wine yard is they never replanted it. Yeah. Because there's was no money to replant it.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:41

And they only in uh replanted individual dead wines, you know. And so if die uh and it is still uncrafted, you know. So that means the individual dead wines which we replant, we replant uncrafted again, original rootstocks, you know. So this vineyard stays always uncrafted, you know. As long as you don't plant it completely, you rip it out completely and plant it completely new. But that is what we're not doing. All our old vineyards we keep, you know, by replanting individual dead wines, you know.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:09

But I saw uh but we are going now to the air in attraption, I think. This is that was the doubt, there was a fluorberein. How do you say that in English? Uh fluorine uh reorganization of the vineyards. Yeah, reorganization of the vineyards. And then I saw lots of wines which were ripped out.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:26

Yeah, yeah. But but you could also you but you don't have been forced to rip them out, you know. Oh, okay. A lot of people, I mean we too preplanted to make to machinize them easier, you know. Um so but uh we kept, for example, in Vilnazon where we have about seven hectares, we kept four hectares old, you know? Okay, three hectares we replanted.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:48

And you have a total of seven hectares Vilnazon, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:51

Something like that. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:52

And all plots, yeah, like uh like in Burgundy, a PC, a piece there over there.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:57

Yeah, but after the reorganization we had much less uh parcels, you know. And uh for example, we had we had about three and a half hectares beforehand, or three hectares, you know, before the reorganization. And these three hectares have been something like 189 different parcels. Now we have seven hectares, and these are 12 or 13 parcels, yeah. Yeah, much bigger parcels, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:25

Far better to work with, of course.

SPEAKER_03 1:03:27

Yeah, and yeah, so um and uh now we have Ernot Traption, which is another Concre vineyard, very famous. Erdon is the village. Traption is the little staircase vineyard because they built uh 150 years ago, so middle of the 19th century. They built because it's super steep, they built these little scents down terraces. Not terraces down stairs in there, you know, to which makes it much easier to go up and down these steep uh slopes, you know, to slap stuff in and slap slap out, yeah. And so and this is also um uh the old parcels around the prelate, you know, this year, the trap. Um so um yeah, also old wines, yeah. Um dry GG or something.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:21

The nose is totally different at the Villanazan.

SPEAKER_03 1:04:23

Because here we have because the Vilda Zanua is the blue slate soil. Here we have red slate soil. Red slate is basically the same time uh of Devonian time slate, you know, but through heat influence, you know, volcanic activity in Urzig, which had been um producing a lot of heat from the lava flow, this heat oxidized red on the red and the left side of Urzig, you know, the blue slate into red slate. Basically, the heat oxidized the iron in the slate to red slate. But you see already a difference again, you know. You don't have this kind of fruit aromas of Lowry aromas from the Vilna Zonware from the blue slate. Um, this is a little bit more, you know. I always think it's more berry fruit, you know, as the stone fruit of white peach. Um you have a little bit more um uh mineraly-driven acidity. The acidity seems to be a little bit more minerally driven um as the Vilna Zonw or a more, you know, um yeah, how should I say this? Uh I always compare my wines with with people, you know. Um so Vilna Zonro is a ballerina, you know. Yeah, yeah. And Ernert Traption is more such a mountain climber, you know, that's kind of say a call, you know. And um and then Urze Wilsgarden is more for me a wrestler. That's the red reconnected soil, it's always mush colour, mush colour, mush colour. Feminine, yeah, and masculine, you know.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:48

I always say to my friends um that Riesling is a great wine, and then you can really taste the different soils. Mm-hmm. Because you put the bottles beside each other, you taste it, you smell it, and you immediately have to that's uh that's

SPEAKER_03 1:06:00

That's the reason for me uh Pinot Noir and Riesling has so many similarities, you know. They're both fruit-driven when they're young, they are cool climate grapes. Both Pinot Noir and Riesling react on soil very much, you know. Pinot Noir the same. So for me, it's always the red and white twin. That's Riesling and Pinot Noir have so many in common. And people who love Pinot Noir usually we like Riesling, and Riesling people always love Pinot Noir because there are so many similarities. And if they are both old, they have even the same aroma, this kind of sous bois. Very old Riesling get also the Sous Bois. We call it Ferne, the French call it bois, but the aroma structure is very similar of a 30-40-year-old Pinot Noir and a 34-year-old uh Riesling Ausleser, you know.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:42

And it doesn't need any um uh Aufschmuck, to to to lift it up. But like there's no big Chardonnay in a world without boot. Yeah, yeah, only champagne. Only champagne, maybe, but a d a dry uh uh still Chardonnay. There's no one in the world, no nothing.

SPEAKER_03 1:07:05

We think doesn't need makeup. It's a natural beauty, yeah, yeah, without makeup. Uh and with r rather low alcohol, you know, all our dry wines uh are maximum 12.5 alcohol. 12.5. It's yeah, usually it is in certain winter uh vintages, it's even low. I mean, we are the the few possibly areas of me uh where we put the alcohol up because usually the people write it down. In in Europe you you have a 0.5, in America 1.5. So in America, if you have a wine with 15.5 alcohol at uh uh on the label, you know, uh that could be also uh 16.5 or 17, you know, and so you know. And so from that point of view, they rather write it, uh write it down. We rather write because often these GGs are between 12 and 12.5, you know, 12.2, you know, 12.3, then we put 12.5 on it, you know. Uh and so they are basically for dry wines natural low, you know, because 12 to 12.5 alcohol nowadays with dry wines, internationally that's low, you know, because I mean everywhere it has 13, 13, uh 13.5 and more nowadays, you know, in the new world anyway, more, you know. Um so from that point of view, uh that's definitely natural beauties, but that gives also the agibility to these wines, you know. The acidity, the lower pH, you know, gives great agibility to these wines, you know. So it's it's it's it's uh but you see it also here that they show very nicely the soil, the terroir. And here now we have the Wurzgarden, you will see totally different again. Um it's uh more this kind of you know, um herbal, spicy character. That's the reason the vineyard is called Spice Garden. Yeah, Urtzig is the village. Würzgarten, the spice garden vineyard, you know, because we have here that is the only vineyard um more or less in the middle Mosul, which is based on red, weathered volcanic soil. I mean, you see, don't see slate there. It's red volcanic soil which weathers down, you know, very deep red weathered volcanic soil. By the way, it's uh we have in the winery also in Oregon in the Dundee Hills. We have exactly the same soil. I brought stones from the Dundee Hills, you know, and have been sitting at next to Erzigerworth's garden stones, you know. And you could you can't see the difference, you know. They call it the uh red volcanic clay or jawry. It is mere or less.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:27

But there you make dare you make uh Pinot Noir out of it. Uh I make Pinot Noir there, yeah. We have it in the next podcast, we talk about that one. Okay. But there the totally the nose is again totally different. This is more bold, this is a bigger one. Yeah, and that's what you say.

SPEAKER_03 1:09:47

Spiciness and herbal, you know, herbal spicy aromas, you know. And I mean the the name of the vineyard really um goes back in a while. Yeah, yeah. I mean, it's it's describing the wine already, you know. Describing the wine already, you know. So different, so yeah, so nice.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:05

And this is in I think there's three kilometers in it, or two maybe. Between difference. Um yeah, I mean not. From Vienna Zonno and Atrepchen is I think two or three kilometers.

SPEAKER_03 1:10:18

I mean by air, by air, because it's just on the other side of the hill. Yeah, because there's the band, you know. If you just go over the yeah, over the hill, then you are in air on attraption. Yeah, and it's a Witzgart, you know? And that is only 1.5 kilometer. Yeah. If you go along the river, yeah. So you have to go along with the band, then it is three, you know?

SPEAKER_01 1:10:38

But you see, and then the difference already is amazing, is amazing, yeah? Nice, very nice. Okay, we have otherwise we get a little bit short of time. Yeah, but we I wanted to talk because you have a personal hobby that is making wines like 200 years ago, like your grand-grandgrand grandfather there. Great grandfather because and we're talking about 150 years ago. Yeah. Last year uh last year we were here, we were in the sitting in the garden at Eva's house, and we had a very old, was it a 2000 Uzik Witzgaden? Was it it was 20 years in barrel?

SPEAKER_03 1:11:16

Uh oh no, no, oh no, that was uh that was um the the the the uh that was uh from the wineyard, Vilnazan, you know, but I kept it 27 years in the barrel on the full yeast, and that is what I just mentioned beforehand. I found this old winemaking book, yeah, Der Kellermeister, what was it called, from 1817, so 200 years ago, you know. Okay, and the winemaking in these days was completely, I mean, not different. I mean, it was due to the fact that in the old days they didn't have any technology, but a lot of time, you know. I always say in the very old days, they had no technology but a lot of time, you know. Nowadays we all don't have time anymore, but therefore a lot of technology. Nowadays you can make a wine from harvest to bottling if you want in two weeks, you know? Absolutely impossible. 100 years, 120 years, 150 years ago, because you didn't have the technology. There was no filters, there was no findings, you know, and nothing, you know. So they had to wait until the wine was after fermentation clear, until it had been fining itself, until it stabilized itself. So they had to wait one, one, two, three, four, five years until the wine was clear, had been stabilizing itself, whatever, you know, and then they could start bottling it, you know, because they didn't had any technology to fast it, you know, to speed it up, you know. And this kind of when I read this book, you know, and that was 1981 when I studied still uh archaeology, and I thought, and that they described that wines had been staying 20 to 30 years in the barrel on the full yeast, you know, before they bottled it, you know. And I thought, how can you keep white wine that long in the barrel? That must be all oxidized, you know, must be sherry or Madeira. So these are the wines which staying also long in the barrel. Well, I'll have this oxidation and so, and therefore they can keep forever, you know, because they are already completely oxidized when they go into the barrel. And so, and I thought, that must be all these kind of wines. And I couldn't get it out of my head. I had been asking my dad, can I have a bat barrel of wine? You know, and he said, Yeah, do whatever you like. You know, he was not really in this in this whole thing. Um so I took a 1981 Wilner Sonnenuhr, I think it was a Spätleser, you know, and kept it in the barrel. Sure, it wasn't dry if you keep it that long in the barrel. Uh kept it in the barrel, but you know, topping up, topping up. And that was also in the description of this, of this, of this, in this, in this old book, you know, that you have to uh make these wines in a clean cellar. Can you believe how sturdy the cellars had been? If you have to mention it in a clean cellar and by topping it up regularly, you know, always uh topping up, topping up, topping up regularly, you know. And then it says, then you make wine with this very simple wine-making method in this old book. They say, then you make wine which keep forever, you know. And that's the reason I thought that must be oxidized wine. They keep forever, you know. Yeah. If you keep it that long, you know. And so learning by doing, that was my first learning by doing. So I took a barrel, did it this way, you know, we kept it in the barrel, and you know, and so and uh and when we bottled it in 2008, after 27 years, you know, um, it had a slightly touch of cider, you know, but that's completely gone. And every year when we tasted the bottle, uh our our internal title became for this wine our Benjamin Button wine. Because every year when we drank a bottle, we said, Hallelujah, that tastes fresher than last year. You know, every year, my god, it tastes again fresher than last year. What is this? You know, the wine gets fresher, you know, and so you know, and I released the first um uh hundred magnums in 21 when the wine was 40 years old. Amazing, you know. And so, but I have still 750 milliliter bottles, and we tasted the 750 milliliter bottle, um, which will be released, we will release this wine in 31 when it is 50 years old, because the wine is still fresh, you know. And I just had a tasting with I have a lot of these kind of you know, learning by doing wines now, where I keep the wines two years, like this wine we'll taste later, two years in the barrel, four years in the bottle, then three years in the barrel on the full yeast, 11, 12 years in the bottle, eight years in the barrel on the full yeast, because my great-grandfather, I mean, in these days, made only dry wine. That was the great-grandfather from my father's family, because he had two families, you know, my mom's family, which is from the Prim family, which produced only the fruity-style Cabinet Bades Ausser, but my father's family um produced only dry wines, you know. And my great-grandfather kept the wines very long in the barrel, and my dad told me that he these top wines, his best wines, whatever he meant with his best wines. Uh I never met this guy. Um uh he kept uh eight years in the barrel on the full yeast, no batonage, only topping up. This we do too, you know. We do it with an Airnot Trapion, with our oldest Ern Atrepion, 140-year-old uncrafted wines. With the oldest Ern Attraption, we do this because we think that's a very special wine, which can do this. Uh, we keep even eight years in the barrel, you know. Um, but the longest was 27 years, you know. So I have a lot of these things. And I was invited by the wine spectator uh last year, who she, this girl who do about the German wines, heard about all these kind of extended uh yeast contact wines which I produce since 20 years now, you know.

SPEAKER_01 1:16:39

The homage wine.

SPEAKER_03 1:16:40

The homage, which is heritage, and so how we call it and so but it but it is this kind of I I say historic winemaking, you know, not going, it's not natural or orange and going back to whatever they call roots there. No, I go to I go to the time back in the days um where they already have been thinking about making better wines, you know, uh in this case with winemaking, where they had a long experience with long aging um on yeast because that is they didn't have technology, so they knew much more in these days about long aging on yeast, you know. And it was the days around 1900 where German reasoning had been the most expensive wines in the world. And I always thought, God, everybody's talking about it from my colleagues, you know. Oh, you know, German reasoning had been the most expensive wines in the world in those days, 1900. But I always thought, but nobody is going to make the wines exactly as it was done 1900, because there must be a reason that these had been the most expensive wines in the world. At least they should be good, you know. Uh otherwise they can't be the most expensive wines. Sure, there's always fashion and these things too, but at least they had to be good too, you know. But nobody, and I thought we should better, or I should better try to make exactly the wines in these, I mean, as they had been done between 1880 and you know, say 1930 when the technology started, because 29 and 28, I think 1928, 1929, or 30, the first sterile filters had been invented, or the technology had been invented in these days, you know. But until then, they have been still forced to do long aging in the yeast or long aging in the barrel or whatever, you know, to make them naturally clean, naturally fine, and so then at least we should try to make exactly wines as it was done then, to find out what makes these wines so great. And this is the wine we have now, is produced. That was the standard winemaking of my great-grandfather, that everything was stayed, stayed two years in the barrel on the full yeast, you know, no intervention, you know. And in these days there was no filters, you know. So that means I bottled these wines also without filtration and without fining, you know. So exactly as it was done in these days. And um this is our most prestigious vineyard, also 120, 130 old uncrafted wines. Um, it's called Erdener Prelat. It's only a 1.6 hectare vineyard, but it has a very, very special, possibly the most special microclimate of the Middle Mosel, you know, because it's surrounded by huge, I mean massive cliffs. It's so pittoresque this vineyard, you know. But it's surrounded like an amphitheater, 100% south-facing vineyard, 100% steep, close to the river, then completely surrounded by these massive cliffs, you know, red slate cliffs, um, that makes a very, very special microclimate. And um and um and that basically uh makes uh super nice wines, you know. And here we do only GG reserve wines because it's so small. The vineyard are 1.6 hectare. I own only 0.7 hectare. Uh the other 0.9 hectare is I think uh 17 owners, you know. And so so we have not so much wineyard, um, uh not so many parcels there to make a lot of different wines. So we decided only to do a GG reserve wine. We call it GG reserve because it stays two uh GG, stays one year in the barrel or the full yeast GG reserve, two years in the barrel on the full yeast. Then we bottle it without filtration, without fining, and then it stays minimum another four years in the bottle before we release it. This is the 2018, which is just released, you know. And I think because in the old days they drank everything only old, that makes it uh for me very important to also to release these wines, at least with some age. I would rather go 10 years before I release it, but uh I have a younger brother, and he's uh he's uh he he doesn't share my extreme ideas.

SPEAKER_01 1:20:47

You're talking about Thomas.

SPEAKER_03 1:20:49

Thomas, yeah. No, he's a great guy. Without him, I would never have been succeeded that far because he he is in the production, he keeps all these things.

SPEAKER_01 1:20:57

Thomas Thomas is organized. Yeah, we are organized.

SPEAKER_03 1:21:00

I'm not organized, you know, but I have more ideas, you know. I'm more the impresario, you know. But uh that is, you know, uh everybody in the company always said, you know, I'm traveling a lot, as I said. And every time when I come back, I have new ideas. And everybody in the company already is frightened when I come back. Oh my god, he's coming back with new ideas and treating us, you know, and bothering us with the new ideas, you know. So, and you see, but that makes very complex wine. There's two years in the barrel on the full yeast, you know, and then this uh additional uh uh aging makes super complex wines. For me, it is nearly, I mean, it can be nearly Burgundian style, you know.

SPEAKER_01 1:21:39

Yeah, well, well that is when we last year had the the validance 81 validus or no, huh? 81. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:21:46

Yeah, but it's not I mean we are not allowed to put the label the vineyard on it.

SPEAKER_01 1:21:50

But when you get that in the glass and you say nothing, nothing at all. You don't tell what it is, you never come on Riesling.

SPEAKER_03 1:21:58

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:21:59

It's almost burgundy.

SPEAKER_03 1:22:01

It is, yeah. And it has an you know, it's dry wine, but it has an extract sweetness, no? Isn't it? It it has a sweet finish, but not from sugar, from the extract, you know, and this kind of winemaking, you know, and it's really interesting. So, I mean, learning by doing again, you know, finding out what they did 120 years, 130 years ago, basically uh suddenly, you know, made a big impact to us, you know. I mean, sure, Bernie had been improving because you can't do it with the first time, but every year he's improving. I think he he really improved it to the perfection now. And so, and we see now that a lot of my colleagues starting to do the same, you know, because you know, in the beginning they thought, oh, look at this guy. I mean, everybody wants to be one young one. I know uh from Clemens Bush, you also uh uh now everybody is copying it, you know, and and now and now nowadays it's everybody's own idea. But I don't know. I mean, you know, if something is good and get copied, you know, I mean, that is always um a compliment. A compliment, you know.

SPEAKER_01 1:22:58

Yeah, yeah. Well we have to shop. Uh we have two more questions. Yes. Um how many only yes, and how much how many of your wines is for the for the domestic market, and how many do you export?

SPEAKER_03 1:23:12

Uh we I would say in the in all overall, it's about 10% domestic and 90% is export. That's the reason we are not, I mean, you know, and and you know, other producers uh sell much more in the domestic market, much less. That's the reason we are still not like you mentioned beforehand, um that uh that that we still have a high portion of Kabinet and Spätleser in the production, you know. I would say dry makes only 30% of our production, which is more or less than for the domestic market. But um but the export also starts to to pick up the GGs and GG reserves, you know. Uh but we still, especially with Asia, uh Tri-Reasoning in Asia is not yet popular. So it is nearly all fruity-style cabinet, Spade laser. Less the noble sweet wines. Noble sweet wines all over the world had been declining, you know. It doesn't matter if it is Sotern or Tokai, no, whatever, you know. Uh the same with us, Berenhouse laser, chocolate man house laser, high-end gold capsule Auslaser that had been declining, you know. But the the the predicate cabinet später laser, normal hours laser, you know, not so much but try this, not so much noble sweet with a little bit lower sweetness. This is still, I mean, doing very well, especially in Asia and the US, you know. US is still only 10% dry as most fruity style.

SPEAKER_01 1:24:36

Talking about the US, you have your own import fashion. We have our own importing and distribution company in the US, yes. Lozin Brothers USA. What do you think of uh now? It's totally fresh, of course. What happens when the when the uh tariffs are?

SPEAKER_03 1:24:51

Well, we may we we may well we we already had have the experience of tariffs, you know, because the last two years of Mr. Trump of his last reign, you know, we had tariffs already. He introduced in these days 25% tariffs on European wines, you know. Yeah, I know. And so we had been already going through this kind of nightmare, you know. Uh to be frank, if you uh if you let it go, you know, say I can't do anything, you know, I can't give you an extra uh discount, and if the distributor uh not also helps, you know, to to balance it out, you know, uh, and you have to calculate the 25% as it was six years ago, right through it increase the retail price by 50%. So wine, which was $30 retail, is going up to $45 retail, which kills the product. Sorry, nobody I mean 10% price increase. If you have tariffs, people I mean aware that it's a little bit uh more expensive. 10% you can uh manage, you know, but 50% price increase kills the product. Okay, now we're talking about possibly 20%, because he already I mean introduced 20%, but now he postponed it for uh three months, 90 days. So that's then only 10%. Okay, 10% this is something you can manage, you know. If if the producer, the importer takes five percent cut off his margin, then you can balance out the 10%, 20 for 20%, which might be after 90 days, again the case, you know. Or whatever, if he wakes up tomorrow and says, No, I don't, I think 20% is not enough. Let's go 40%, whatever. We all don't know because it's it's unpredictable, yeah. You know, what what what what's happened, what's happening, especially with this gentleman, you know. And um so but 20% hurts already more, you know, because it becomes very difficult. How how you want to balance out 20%, you know? I mean, 10% the producer, 10% the importer, 5% somebody else, you know, and to to balance that's a little bit too much, you know. So it will it will uh it will end up in a price increase, retail. I don't know high how high. I mean 20% if there's no support at all from producer, from the importer, from the distributor, then um the 20% will end up from $30 to $42, you know, still too much for my opinion, you know. Uh but if you have some help, um most when we had been writing to all our producer, I mean suppliers, we have been writing to all our distributors, you know, and said, look, what can we do? What can we um how we can support this whole thing, you know, that the price increase is not too traumatic, you know, because 30 to 42 is too traumatic, you know, that is that kills it. But at the end, there will be a lot of a lot of um um I mean it will be difficult, you know. And the wine consumption in the US at all has been going down, you know, through the recession, through the price increase worldwide. Yeah. So from that point of view, it will not help because also American wines, which are not, you know, I mean not impact and have no impact of the tariffs, but you see also American wines are suffering in the US, you know, overproduction prices, there's a lot of pressure, you know. So that means that will not help the tariffs to to to to to continue. The American market will be, I mean, will be very how you said should say, uh challenging in the future, if the tariffs, whatever they are. Yeah, nervous marks. Um and you know, and we all don't know where it ends up because it can be also ending up because if you get pissed off because of whatever, you know, he's look look at China, then you say, but that's oh, you know what? We do 100%, 125%. But that would be the end, you know. That is then that kills everything, you know. So we don't know. I mean, from that point of view, we can only decide from one day to the other, you know. Okay, we have let's hope, 90 days of of our of our of a of a of a window, time window, where we can react and do at least the 90 days. We can say, okay, let's get more wine over there. And so, but what we do now after 90 days, you know, so it's unpredictable from that point of view. Okay, let's see. Well, let's see, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:29:07

Okay. Well, thank you for your side and your uh explanation about the wine good dr. Lawson. Uh we have yeah, we have another one to go, and it's about all your other companies you have. So uh we have two, uh we have two uh uh podcasts. Uh so we will send first podcast one, this is this, and then a week later we do podcast two, but we're going to mix it up now, everything. So thank you very much. Very beautiful, but the erne prelade, we didn't give it any attention, but yeah, what a gorgeous it speaks for itself, in my opinion.

SPEAKER_03 1:29:41

I mean, you only have to taste it and then you know what we're talking about here.

SPEAKER_01 1:29:44

So I had a 2011, which was the first vintage. Yeah, that was and it's still fresh. Yeah, fantastic.

SPEAKER_03 1:29:49

Yeah, I decided this winemaking gives even more age-bility as only one year in the barrel. And we see it as long as it is in the barrel, and that is the that is what I discovered through the in the book, in the book, you know. As long as it is in the barrel, there's more ageability. And that is totally new to me, you know. But you find out only by learning by doing. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:30:08

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 1:30:08

Thanks. I thank you very much. Thanks, Marco.

SPEAKER_01 1:30:11

Cheers, cheers, cheers, down the hedge.